Best Pacific Fighter?

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Today..... Horse asked me the other day and I was outta town for my Moms funeral.. It was made official today.....

I'm sorry for your loss. I lost my Father this past May, and it was the hardest experiance of my life by far.

Take care of yourself and your family.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by wmaxt

I the web page (p-38(C.C.Jorden...)) mJorden states that in various conversations/statements with aces on both sides that the P-51 & P-47s were disliked but the P-38s were "The most hated and feared aircraft"

We had a Japanese member of the Fighter Ace community who posted that his father would pray before each sortie that he would not encounter Corsairs. I think it sorta mattered where and when they were stationed as to which planes were most feared/respected. And this probably had as much to do with the experiance level of the enemy pilots as the planes they flew by 1944.

=S=

Lunatic

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Performance evaluations dont lie.... The Allieds test flew it and were beyond impressed..... Sakai was a very opinionated pilot...... In everything....

Often performance evaluations do lie. US post-war evaluations of Japanese planes often involve at least a few re-engineered parts to get the plane operational. On the late model Frank for instance, evidently the low-pressure fuel system was re-worked to get the plane working well enough to test its overall performance, and it turned in a speed of about 425 mph, which no Japanese tests achieved.

Also, performance evaluation figures that do not include the full text of the evaluation, just the best case figures, cover up chronic problems. The N1K1 and N1K2, and the J2M's, had serious landing gear and engine problems, which are not represented in typical performance data listings.

Seriously, if you really research it, I think you will come to the conclusion that the Ki-84 "Frank" was the best Japanese combat fighter of WWII by a noticable margin.

=S=

Lunatic

[lesofprimus]

RG, Thanks for your condolences... Mine to u for ur Dad.... I still cant really come to terms with this yet.. It'll take awhile I'm sure....

[evangilder]

My condolences to you, Dan.

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by RG_Lunatic

We had a Japanese member of the Fighter Ace community who posted that his father would pray before each sortie that he would not encounter Corsairs. I think it sorta mattered where and when they were stationed as to which planes were most feared/respected. And this probably had as much to do with the experiance level of the enemy pilots as the planes they flew by 1944.

=S=

Lunatic

True enough, you were never concerned about the aircraft you never encountered. I read somewhare that one of the things the Japanese hated about the P-38 was that with it's range they never knew when or where they would show up.

[lesofprimus]

Thanks Evan....

[lesofprimus]

N1K2-J Shiden Kai (Violet Lightning Modified)

Although the N1K1-J was an outstanding fighter, it did have some serious defects. Its Homare 21 engine was notoriously unreliable, and the complex doubly-retracting landing gear was subject to frequent failures. Even before the N1J1-J entered production, work had already begun at Kawanishi on correcting some of its more glaring defects, in particular its long and complex landing gear.

The result of these changes was the Shiden-Kai (Violet Lightning--Modified). Given the designation N1K2-J, the aircraft was completely redesigned so as to use fewer components in order to simplify its construction. More non-critical materials were to be used. Another step towards simplification involved the use of pre-formed sheet construction. Perhaps the most easily-noted innovation was the use of a low-mounted wing in place of the original mid-mounted wing. This permitted a shorter set of landing gear legs to be used, and the complex double-retraction system which had caused so many problems could be eliminated. In addition, the fuselage was lengthened and the tail surfaces were redesigned. The result was a virtually new aircraft, although the unreliable 1990 hp Homare 21 engine of the N1K1-J was retained. Armament was four 20-mm cannon, all mounted internally to the wing.

The first N1K2-J prototype took off on its maiden flight on December 31, 1943. It was handed over to the Japanese Navy for trials in April of 1944. Although the Homare 21 engine was still mechanically unreliable, the Navy liked the aircraft so much that they authorized quantity production of the N1K2-J to be its standard land-based fighter and fighter-bomber even before the service trials were completed. Production aircraft were designated Navy Interceptor Fighter Shiden Kai (Violet Lightning Modified) Model 21. In addition to the Kawanishi plant at Naruo, the Shiden Kai was ordered into production at the Himeji works of Kawanishi. Shiden Kai fighter aircraft were also ordered into production from the Dai-Nana Kokuki Seisakusho (7th Airframe Works) of the Mitsubishi Jukogyo K. K. at Tsurashima, from the Aichi Kokuki K. K. at Eitoku, from the Showa Hikoki K. K. at Shinonoi, and from the Naval Air Arsenals at Hiro, Omura, and Koza.

A further seven prototypes had been completed by June of 1944, However, the prototypes began to experience a long series of teething troubles, which proved difficult to correct. The Shiden-Kai program began to slip its schedules, and by the autumn of 1944 the N1K2-J production lines were beginning to experience shortages of vital components due to B-29 attacks against the factories of Kawanishi's subcontractors. By the end of 1944, only 60 Shiden Kais had been delivered by the Naruo factory, and production at Himeji did not begin until March of 1945. The other manufacturers in the Shiden Kai pool were never able to produce more than a handful of aircraft.

The Shiden Kai was to become the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier.

However, against the B-29, the N1K2-J was less successful, since its climbing speed was insufficient and the power of the Homare 21 engine fell off rather rapidly at higher altitudes.

Only 415 production examples of the outstanding N1K2-J fighter were built, owing primarily to construction snags and delays resulting from the continuous B-29 raids on the Japanese homeland in the last year of the war. With the exception of Kawanishi's Naruo and Himeji plants, the other companies involved in the production pool were late in getting started and delivered only a token number of machines before the war ended. It is fortunate for the Allies that this outstanding aircraft was not available in greater quantity.

After the war in the Pacific was over, several N1K2-J fighters were discovered intact at Japanese airfields and were brought back to the United States for study. These aircraft were compared to all the available Allied fighters and found to be superior in all around superiorty. In mock dogfighting, several American aviators complemented the aircraft and its performance. They went so far as to say that had the Japanese been able to mass produce this aircraft earlier in the War, the loss of pilots would have been unacceptable.

Specification of the Kawanishi N1K2-J Shiden Kai:

One Nakajima NK9H Homare 21 eighteen-cylinder air-cooled radial rated at 1990 hp for takeoff, 1825 hp at 5740 feet, 1625 hp at 20,015 feet. Performance: Maximum speed 369 mph at 19,355 feet, 359 mph at 9840 feet. Cruising speed 230 mph at 9845 feet, service ceiling 35,300 feet cruising speed 230 mph at 6600 feet. Climb to 19,685 feet in 7 minutes 22 seconds. Normal range 1066 miles at 219 mph at 9840 feet, maximum range 1488 miles with 88 Imp. gall. drop tank.

Weights: 5858 pounds empty, 8818 pounds loaded, 10,714 pounds maximum loaded.

Dimensions: wingspan 39 feet 4 7/16 inches, length 30 feet 7 29/32 inches, height 12 feet 11 29/32 inches, wing area 252.95 square feet.

Armament: Four 20-mm Type 99 Model 2 cannon in the wings. Two 551-pound bombs or one 88 Imp. gall. drop tank could be carried externally.

[wmaxt]

I revisited the article "The F4U-4 the best fighter/bomber in WWII" "Planes and Pilots " website and it's comparison of the F-4U-4. It has several Except for the P-38 comments acceleration, manuverability, dive speed. Maimly it was a comparison with the P-51 so a further comparison had to be made to show the P-38s stats which are better or the same. Top speed P-38L 443mph, F4U-4 446mph (confirmed with other references the -5 is 460mph) Max climb P-38 4, 120-4,225, F4u-4 4,175 except for carrier landings the f-4U does not have a clear advantage anywhere and the P-38 has small advantages in many areas criticle in ACM.

I still go for the P-38

[MichaelHenley]

My condolences to you Les.

[lesofprimus]

Thank You...

[cheddar cheese]

Me too.

Originally Posted by wmaxt

I revisited the article "The F4U-4 the best fighter/bomber in WWII" "Planes and Pilots " website and it's comparison of the F-4U-4. It has several Except for the P-38 comments acceleration, manuverability, dive speed. Maimly it was a comparison with the P-51 so a further comparison had to be made to show the P-38s stats which are better or the same. Top speed P-38L 443mph, F4U-4 446mph (confirmed with other references the -5 is 460mph) Max climb P-38 4, 120-4,225, F4u-4 4,175 except for carrier landings the f-4U does not have a clear advantage anywhere and the P-38 has small advantages in many areas criticle in ACM.

I still go for the P-38

That top speed for the P-38L is with the under wing pylons removed. If you remove the pylons on the F4U-4, top speed was 464 mph. How can you argue with the USN about the figures? (see http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f4u-4.pdf - check the last page notes for the "clean condition", which shows a speed of 403 knots). Climb rate is also quite a bit better, at 4.9 mins to 20,000 feet with capped plyons aboard, vs 7 mins to the same alt for the P-38L. That's a huge difference.

The p-38 is one of my favorite planes too, but I still think the F4U-4 was clearly superior at all but very high altitudes, where the P-38 was perhaps slightly better.

=S=

Lunatic

[lesofprimus]

The p-38 is one of my favorite planes too, but I still think the F4U-4 was clearly superior at all but very high altitudes, where the P-38 was perhaps slightly better.

I agree on all counts....

[Lightning Guy]

P-38 would always out-turn, out-dive, out-gun, out-range the Corsair. Best evidence seems to suggest that the speed and climb were relatively close.

Furthermore, the P-38 enjoyed significant advantages over the Shiden in everything but maneuverability. Properly flown, P-38's were able to counter Shidens without much difficulty.