Quote:
OK, let's try a different tack.
Where did the numbers you claim for the P-38 (about 1700) come from? Counting the individual tallies of the pilots
listed seems acceptable, but a bit tedious. Is that your source? Is there another?
|
Taking a step back and a deep breath.
The discussion was one relating to a claim that the P-38 shot down (NOTE “shot down” - that means in air to
air action). And not to repeat lots of number thrown around, I reported hard numbers from the USN regarding
the results from it’s two major fighters that would seem to contradict the P-38 claim. The P-38 claim became one
of 5730, a claim for which no one has offered a reliable source. I offered the results of some pretty in depth research
which indicated a number of about 1770 for the P-38. And for that being thoroughly trashed, evidently for providing
information that shatters some cherished beliefs. After a final plea, I finally broke down and composed a long
missive that provided my sources. Regretfully my post went out without my reading any intervening posts.
I thank you for the opportunity to respond to the request for sources and the time granted to do so. I’m sorry that
you could not wait for it.
And so now you know my sources, at least the ones readily available to Mr and Mrs America and all the ships at sea.
I have others, originals or copies of documents and reports all neatly stored that I can drag out as needed.
But, you know, frankly, the apparent fact that some do not have access to all of the sources as do I, really isn’t
my problem. The fact that some either cannot accurately read or willfully distort the information that is in the available
internet sources isn’t particularly my problem, either. It is simply a shame that some feel they have to misrepresent
the data evidently because it does not conform to their beliefs.
To wit, (and please, please, someone go and check my numbers as an independent third party) please find
below the results of fighter combat, by month, for the USAAF in the Pacific. And, at the risk of repeating
myself, the USAAF considered the Pacific Theater to consist of the Far East Air Forces, Central Pacific Air Forces,
and the Alaska Air Forces. This data is drawn from the relevant USAAF Statistical Digest tables 169, 170, and
172 and shows credited fighter victories for the months shown.
From Table 169 Enemy Aircraft Destroyed Pacific Ocean Areas
Enemy Aircraft Destroyed in the Air, by fighters, Pacific Ocean Areas
None Reported for Months not shown
Oct-43 = 1
Dec-43 = 5
Jan-44 = 12
Jun-44 = 1
Jul-44 = 2
Oct-44 = 1
Nov-44 = 12
Dec-44 = 10
Jan-45 = 3
Feb-45 = 5
Mar-45 = 2
Apr-45 = 71
May-45 = 88
Jun-45 = 113
Jul-45 = 44
Subtotal = 370
From Table 170 Enemy Aircraft Destroyed Far East Air Forces
Enemy Aircraft Destroyed in the Air, by fighters, Far East Air Forces
None Reported for Months not shown
Feb-42 = 20
Mar-42 = 12
Apr-42 = 9
May-42 = 14
Jun-42 = 20
Jul-42 = 4
Aug-42 = 26
Oct-42 = 6
Nov-42 = 25
Dec-42 = 54
Jan-43 = 41
Feb-43 = 44
Mar-43 = 38
Apr-43 = 20
May-43 = 11
Jun-43 = 85
Jul-43 = 104
Aug-43 = 130
Sep-43 = 154
Oct-43 = 234
Nov-43 = 157
Dec-43 = 215
Jan-44 = 97
Feb-44 = 61
Mar-44 = 98
Apr-44 = 33
May-44 = 30
Jun-44 = 61
Jul-44 = 20
Aug-44 = 15
Sep-44 = 12
Oct-44 = 76
Nov-44 = 276
Dec-44 = 341
Jan-45 = 58
Feb-45 = 21
Mar-45 = 38
Apr-45 = 11
May-45 = 3
Jun-45 = 3
Jul-45 = 9
Aug-45 = 23
Subtotal = 2709
From Table 172 Enemy Aircraft Destroyed Alaska
Enemy Aircraft Destroyed in the Air, by fighters, Alaskan Air Forces
None Reported for Months not shown
Jun-42 = 8
Aug-42 = 2
Sep-42 = 1
Oct-42 = 9
Nov-42 = 0
Dec-42 = 1
Feb-43 = 6
Mar-43 = 2
May-43 = 5
Subtotal = 34 Total = 3113
Note that the total, 3113 is quite a bit less that the number I originally gave as credit for USAAF fighter air to air,
a score of 3715; a difference, in fact of 602, which I previously pointed out. So, right off the bat, I give the USAAF
MORE credits than their own statistical digest. Does anyone want to move that we use this 3113 number instead?
Then, there’s always the 1957 recompilation of aerial victories. I won’t bore you with a lot on in and outs on
getting a count from that, except to say that it can, indeed, be done if one takes the time to do so. And in fact,
quite some time ago, I did so. The count that I came up with counting all the victories in the three aforementioned
operating areas was
3680. Again, a number less than the 3715 I use, by a whopping 35. Does anyone want to
move that we use the 1957 recompilation 3680 instead?
And as an aside, one can go to various places on the internet, which I shall not enumerate as others can
obviously find them if they bother to bestir themselves, find the squadron histories for the units mentioned in
the 1957 recompilation and determine, with say, 95% certainty, which aircraft a give squadron was operating.
I did that, too. But, I’m sorry, if someone wants that information, they’ll just have to do it themselves.
Finally, if you just happen to have a copy of Olynyk’s “USAAF (Pacific Theater) Credits for the Destruction of
Enemy Aircraft in Air-to-Air Combat World War II” you could go to the table in the very back, after the day by
day accounting, after the by unit accounting, after the by pilot accounting . . . all the way in the back,
on the last page, we find the following list of credit to the USAAF for aerial victories by known type of plane flown
by a USAAF pilot.
TYPE = CREDIT / PROBABLE / DAMAGED
F-6 = 1 / 0 / 0
F-6 or P-51 = 1 / 0 / 0
F-6D = 12 / 0 / 0
F-6K = 4 / 1 / 0
F4F =0.500 / 0 / 0
P-26 = 1.996 / 0 / 0
P-35A = 1 / 0 / 0
P-36A = 3 / 0 / 1
P-38 = 1085 / 177 / 110
P-38-5 = 1 / 0 / 0
P-38E = 2 / 0 / 0
P-38F = 0 / 0 / 1
P-38F-5 = 88 / 26 / 25
P-38FF-5 = 0 / 1 / 0
P-38G = 33 / 7 / 1
P-38G-1 = 19 / 5 / 5
P-38G-15 = 55 / 14 / 5
P-38G-5 = 8 / 3 / 4
P-38H-1 = 180 / 24 / 16
P-38H-1-LO = 1 / 0 / 0
P-38H-5 = 109 / 26 / 11
P-38J = 1 / 1 / 0
P-38J-15 = 48 / 4 / 7
P-38J-20 = 10.5 / 2 / 4
P-38J-5 = 1 / 0 / 0
P-38L = 32.333 / 0 / 3
P-38L-1 =13 / 2 / 3
P-38L-5 = 13 / 1 / 1
P-39 = 130 / 37 / 18
P-39/400 = 2 / 0 / 0
P-39D = 7 / 2 / 2
P-39D-1 = 18 / 0 / 1
P-39D-2 = 12 / 6 / 1
P-39K = 1 / 0 / 0
P-39K/D = 6 / 0 / 0
P-39K-1 = 11 / 1 / 1
P-39N/Q = 13 / 0 / 2
P-39N-1 = 10 / 3 / 0
P-39N-5 = 21 / 5 / 3
P-39Q = 6 / 0 / 1
P-39Q-1BE = 3 / 0 / 0
P-39Q-5 = 3 / 2 / 2
P-40 = 187 / 31 / 21
P-40 or F-6 = 1 / 0 / 0
P-400 / 45 / 6 / 5
P-400 = 1 / 0 / 0
P-40B = 10 / 0 / 0
P-40E = 135.999 / 10 / 2
P-40E-1 = 45 / 12 / 2
P-40F = 50 / 7 / 0
P-40F/N = 36 / 2 / 5
P-40K = 1 / 0 / 0
P-40K-1 =24 / 4 / 2
P-40M-5 = 1 / 0 / 0
P-40N = 62 / 8 / 6
P-40N-5 = 98 / 9 / 7
P-40N-5-CU = 1 / 0 / 0
P-40R = 8.5 / 0 / 1
P-47 = 487 / 40 / 16
P-47D = 7.666 / 0 / 0
P-47D-2 = 31 / 0 / 0
P-47D-3RA = 2 / 3 / 2
P-47N = 169 / 10 / 16
P-51 = 30 / 2 / 0
P-51D = 187 / 33 / 93.999
P-51D-25NA = 1 / 0 / 1
P-51D-2O = 26 / 2 / 9
P-51D-2ONA = 34 / 2 / 7
P-61 = 43 / 4 / 4
P-61A = 13 / 2 / 0
P-61A-1 = 1 / 0 / 0
P-61A-10 = 1.5 / 0 / 0
P-61A-11 = 1 / 0 / 0
P-61A-5 = 1 / 0 / 0
P-61B-1 = 2 / 0 / 0
P-61B-15 = 1 / 0 / 0
P-70 = 2 / 0 / 0
TOTAL = 3712.994 / 537 / 427.999
You’ll note, undoubtedly the discrepancy between the 3715 figure that I use and the 3712.994. This is due to
rounding within the table itself. Does anyone want to move that we use Olynyk’s 3712.994 instead?
Does anyone one have any better numbers that they can support with documentation?
So, anything else, gross total numbers for all USAAF aircraft or action in the CBI or anywhere else are not germane
to the claim that the P-38 shot down more Japanese planes than any other US type. That’s mixing apples and
oranges, either accidentally or on purpose.
I don’t see anyone with any real numbers to contradict anything here, and I am truly sorry if it does not conform
to anyone’s preconceived notions. Quite honestly, I had no opinion on the matter until a couple of years ago
when I started looking in to claims versus Japanese admitted losses and production. Then intellectual curiosity
got the better of me and I wound up with a couple of Gigs of data.
So, there it is, take it or leave it. If anyone has better, verifiable, numbers, let’s see them.
I regret to tell some here that all the crying and wringing of hands makes no difference. All the shouting and deliberate
mis-presentation (or, charitably, misunderstanding) of numbers that obscure the issue makes no difference.
If you want to have discussion of historical data, then you need the data. And you should be honest in your presentation.
There are some who do not get that message. And your data should be verifiable. To claim some number based
on “lost report” (funny, last time it was because of some mysterious P-51 mafia doctoring the records) doesn’t cut
it. Lost, stolen, or destroyed records don’t speak and don’t get a vote. Most of the time, they never existed.
And I suggest folks search out someone with practical experience with military reporting. They can explain it
to you; obviously my earlier explanation didn’t take except to burst some bubbles.
Quote:
BTW, it is funny in the USN records that all Japanese planes shot down are either fighters or bombers.
Apparently the Japanese had no transport or observation planes that were shot down by the USN.
|
You can go to Table 28 and that gives you a little more breakdown, but only for the period 1 September 1944
through the end of the war. The USN statistics are primarily aimed at results against major combat types,
those of the VF, VB, and VTB varieties. But if you want to look at other types, then the numbers are going to
start to go up. Simply, if they don’t mention the types other than fighters and bombers, then the numbers are a
little low as they are incomplete. So, looking at Table 28, at the bottom there’s some catch all categories.
They are (and I’ll just provide the totals for USN fighters operating in that period taken directly from the table):
F6F –
Flying Boats = 17
Transports = 36
Trainers = 17
Total = 70
F4U
Flying Boats = 0
Transports = 3
Trainers = 12
Total = 15
FM
Flying Boats = 0
Transports = 1
Trainers = 0
Total = 1
Now then, I don’t have the individual USMC results, so any additional numbers I can add will probably still be
somewhat short, but I can fill in the totals for the Dec 1941 through August 1944 of shoot downs by Navy
fighters of these general types of aircraft based on the ACA reports filed. I won’t break it down by month or
anything fancy, but offer just a rough aggregate number in the same format.
F4F
Flying Boats = 17
Transports = 0
Trainers = 0
Total = 17
F6F
Flying Boats = 22
Transports = 2
Trainers = 0
Total = 24
F4U = No change
FM = No change
Which makes a rough total, for the USN types shown, for the entire war of
Totals
Flying Boats = 56
Transports = 42
Trainers = 29
Total = 127
There were, of course, others of these categories shot down by USN VB, VT, VP, and VBP types. Further, the USN
made no distinction, for example, between the G4M series bombers and the G6M series transports, essentially
indistinguishable from the exterior. As far as the USN was concerned, a “Betty” was a bomber.
Regards,
Rich
I cringed as the P-40s were shot up on the runway as the brave pilots tried to get in the air. Then cheared when a few were able to make it up. I know it is not a lot of victories but the kills they got must have been really hard. Also there are some great shots of PBYs sadly also being shot up.
Linear Mode
