Best Pacific Fighter?

[airboiy]

hey, what about the "tony"? why no mention?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by airboiy

hey, what about the "tony"? why no mention?

Because for the most part it got mauled....

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by airboiy

hey, what about the "tony"? why no mention?

Good plane, not great, but good. Too few, even fewer spare parts to keep them flying, even fewer good Japanese pilots who knew how to fly them properly.

[renrich]

If one believes that the P38 (which I do) belongs on the "premier" list of US fighters, along with P47,P51, F4U and F6F, the P38 was a long way in front of the other "premier" fighters being deployed and in combat in the Pacific. The first combat in the "Pacific" for P38 was on Aug 9, 1942, when two Lightnings shot down two Jap flying boats near Alaska. On Aug 22, 1942, the 67th FS made up of P400s and P38s arrived at Henderson Field, Guadalcanal. By October, 42, there were 60 P38s in the PTO but they were plagued with problems which hindered their getting into combat. First combat for the P38 in the SW Pacific is on Dec 27, 1942 over New Guinea. Interesting that the airplane had been in theatre since August but not in combat until December. The next "premier" fighter to be deployed in the PTO was the F4U, in February, 1943.

[kool kitty89]

Agree on the P-47, but let's not focus too much this particular discussion (albeit started by me) as it belong here: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/pol...47-273-12.html (p51 vs p47)
And this one has some interesting discussions on it: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...47-a-4849.html (Fw-190 vs Spit/P-51/P-47)

One interesting thing to think about
(From the opening of the second thread):

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

There was an interesting documentary on the N24 a German documentary and news TV channel about the Fw-190. They talked about the development and the Butcher Bird in action. They interviewed several members of the Wilde Sau unit and several other Luftwaffe units. The show is coming back on TV tonight and I will have to watch it again for names of the pilots. They also interviewed several USAAF pilots who flew against the Fw-190.

All of the Luftwaffe pilots had these things to say about the allied aircraft.

They said the Spitfire was a superb aircraft and in straight up one on one fighting they were more scared of the Spitfire than the P-51D. The one they really did not like flying against was the P-47. They said it was a very hard aircraft to take down and a worthy opponent.

One USAAF pilot (name not remembered until I watch the documentary again tonight) who flew all 3 of the mentioned allied aircraft said he really enjoyed flying the Spitfire. He said it was easy and a joy to fly. The P-51D on the other hand he said he did not enjoy very much. He said the only advantage it had over the Fw-190 and even the Bf-109 was its long range, saying it was especially hard to get the upper hand of the Fw-190D-9 with a P-51D.

The one that he preferred to fight the Fw-190 in was the P-47 due to its heavy armament and good armour and robust engine.

He even went as far as saying that the Fw-190D was probably the best fighter overall produced in WW2.

And... Back to the Pacific.

[Hunter368]

Interesting,

I have read the same thing from LW vets, they respected and feared the P-47 more then any other Allied fighter.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

Interesting,

I have read the same thing from LW vets, they respected and feared the P-47 more then any other Allied fighter.

I have talked to some, it all depends on whom and when. I' have heard Spifire, Mustang and P-47 from different pilots

The 51 killed a lot more LW pilots than any Allied fighter except perhaps the Spitfire - I am still having trouble getting those statistics.. but the Spit fought a lot longer.

Zemke is a notable P-47 scorer that liked the 51 better air to air against the LW when he took over the 479th, although he loved the Thunderbolt.

[Soren]

The 51 killed a lot more LW pilots than any Allied fighter except perhaps the Spitfire

Its easier to shoot down enemy fighters when they're busy shooting down bombers, the Spitfire pilots didn't get that luxury. The P-51 for the most part also got to fight at its best altitude, again a luxury the Spitfire didn't enjoy to the same extent. Hence the very high losses the Spitfire suffered.

The point is however that the Mustang was great as it allowed the Allies to protect their bombers, but as an individual air superiority fighter it wasn't anything special, the latest Fw-190, Spitfire & Bf-109's being better in terms of performance & agility. But good it was and very fast esp. at its introduction, and it did well.

As for killing the most LW pilots, well that honor goes to the Spitfire hands down.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Its easier to shoot down enemy fighters when they're busy shooting down bombers, the Spitfire pilots didn't get that luxury. The P-51 for the most part also got to fight at its best altitude, again a luxury the Spitfire didn't enjoy to the same extent. Hence the very high losses the Spitfire suffered.

The point is however that the Mustang was great as it allowed the Allies to protect their bombers, but as an individual air superiority fighter it wasn't anything special, the latest Fw-190, Spitfire & Bf-109's being better in terms of performance & agility. But good it was and very fast esp. at its introduction, and it did well.

As for killing the most LW pilots, well that honor goes to the Spitfire hands down.

Ah I knew someone would have the facts on this.. What are they Soren? How many LW fighters did the Spitfire claim? Source?

And what other fighter than the Mustang gained air superiority over Germany?

And to point/question of air superiority.

would you say the Spitfire achieved that over UK? Did they manage over German territory? Did the 109 and 190 dominate over USSR/East? How did they manage against the Mustang over their own territory and specifically over Germany? Did any other fighter achieve air superiority over Germany?

[Soren]

Well lets see Bill, the Spitfire fought from the BoB till the end of the war, the P-51 first started its career THREE years later in 1943! It's a no'brainer.

The Spitfire was responsible for allot of LW fighters and bombers shot down in BoB alone, and it didn't stop fighting the LW from then on. The P-51 hardly shot down any bombers, and the number of fighters it shot down I sincerely doubt is as high as that of the Spitfire.

One has to remember the time of introduction for these two a/c as one served 3 more years than the other.

[syscom3]

lets get back to the Pacific.

I still dont see anything contrary to the P38 not being the best.

The Corsair was a great fighter, but in 1943 and 1944, the P38 was supreme.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Well lets see Bill, the Spitfire fought from the BoB till the end of the war, the P-51 first started its career THREE years later in 1943! It's a no'brainer.

The Spitfire was responsible for allot of LW fighters and bombers shot down in BoB alone, and it didn't stop fighting the LW from then on. The P-51 hardly shot down any bombers, and the number of fighters it shot down I sincerely doubt is as high as that of the Spitfire.

One has to remember the time of introduction for these two a/c as one served 3 more years than the other.

Well - 'no brainer' as it may be for you, consider this. The P-38 fought the LW since Nov 1942, the P-47 since Apr 1943 and both were far behind the Mustang. The Spitfire fought from late 1939 and engaged quite a bit so it raises the question doesn't it?

Like the P-47 the Spitfire was largely fighting smaller clashes with the LW from 1942 forward.. steady but small. Ditto P-47 and P-38 in 1943 and 1944 up to D-Day. The 51 was fighting and winning big air battles over Germany while the 47 and Spitfire and Tempest and Typhoons and Hurricanes were on the periphery due to lack of range and lack of incentive for LW day fighters to come up and fight,

But I asked for facts and you give me 'no brainer'.. what is your fact base Soren? How many awards for LW fighters were assigned to Spitfires? Specifically a 'number'... and the source for the number.

You may doubt it (Mustang shot down higher number of fighters). I expressed doubt also - but my doubt was based on "I don't know because I haven't found the facts yet".

This is interesting if you have facts. Otherwise it is not interesting.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by syscom3

lets get back to the Pacific.

I still dont see anything contrary to the P38 not being the best.

The Corsair was a great fighter, but in 1943 and 1944, the P38 was supreme.

They were both great. The P-38 had some performance advantage, the F4U had some performance advantages. The F4u could operate from land and sea. It engaged more and destroyed more and lost fewer air to air than the 38 (IIRC). The F4U was cheaper. The F4U continued stellar service through the Korean War. The P-38 did not.

It's a matter of preference for many but certainly not a 'clear win' for the P-38.

I picked the F4U because I think it was a slightly better air fighter than the 51, that the 51 was better air fighter than the 38 (in my opinion), and the F4U derivatives which went into Korean War were better air to ground platforms for ground support than any P-38. I'm having a hard time finding data to support that a P-38 was more survivable as a strafer than a 51 - at least with 8th AF statistics from the Macrs.

I also think the P-38 was the greatest fighter 'we could have built' in WWII had the program not been set back two years and had a P-38L in the air in late 1942 - but it was and it wasn't.

I am really not that passionate about arguing either position except that I would clearly buy all F4U's in 1942 if I had to pick one fighter for the rest of the war.

[Soren]

Bill do you even consider the fact that the Spitfire was responsible for a huge loss of LW bombers & transports ? Do you also realize that LW bombers & transports often featured a crew of 5 or more ?

And as for tallies well do you have info which suggests that the P-51 shot down more fighters than the Spitfire ? (In the air that is)

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Bill do you even consider the fact that the Spitfire was responsible for a huge loss of LW bombers & transports ? Do you also realize that LW bombers & transports often featured a crew of 5 or more ?

And as for tallies well do you have info which suggests that the P-51 shot down more fighters than the Spitfire ? (In the air that is)

How many Spitfire awards Soren for LW fighters - the central question and the repeated request.