Best Piston Engined Fighter Ever...

[B-17engineer]

Because I listed no axis aircraft I need to educate myself....I already voted so whatever.....

[The Basket]

I think the Yugoslavs designed and built the last new post war prop fighter...but I can't think what the name was. I can't remember a new design coming through after the war.

The Tu-95 shows that props could be fast but I doubt if anything could match a jet.

Dunno if the Tank fighters were the best but they certainly turned out to be the highest performing and so ultimate of the breed.

Martin Baker MB5 is a good example of a first rate fighter but with no use. Talk about all dressed up and no where to go.

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

The P-47 probably gets the vote for sturdiest fighter of WWII. It was hard to down one.

But I have heard that the Corsair was almost as hard to shoot down.

[kool kitty89]

Who knows what the P-47J or P-72 could have developed into though...

The thing is the US didn't have the same need for interceptors and most intrest was turning tward jets for this too. The P-72 probably could have been developed into a capable escort fighter though.

If the US had had somthig much like the Ta 152 it too would likely have been abandoned in favor of more advanced jets. And in that same vein the LW needed the Me 262 more than the Ta 152 anyway.

[joy17782]

i picked the corsair , very good kill rate when stationed on land and the carrier groups, the german i would say is fw 190 dora, the jap the zero, the english, the spit, the russian, the yak 9, and too be honest there not my favorite planes, but its just hard too say what really was the best,

[kool kitty89]

I'd say it was the N1K-2J for the Japanese, not as fast or heavily armed as the Ki-84 (For Ki-84 with 30mm) but it was long legged and the only Japanese plane that vould compare with the toughness and pilot protection of US fighters. Plus it could climb almost as well and outmaneuver all allied fighter opposition. (it also had automatic combat flaps) It had a decent armament, though still not enough to really fight the B-29's and not enough high alt performance (common to all a/c with the engine) Plus performance was much limited by the low octane Japanese fuel, with US 100 octane fuel it aoutperformed the Hellcat in all performance categories and it had even better maneuverabillity than prior.

Like most Japanese a/c it also had good all-around visibility.

[red admiral]

Does anyone have any information on the speed of the Ta 152 at lower altitudes? Comparing its maximum speed at 40,000ft doesn't realistically compare it to other's maximum speeds which occur at 20-30,000ft. At that extreme altitude, there most likely isn't anything better, but in the mid-altitude range I think things get a bit murkier.

Below 20,000ft the Hawker Fury, owns the skies. 5800fpm rate of climb, 460mph at 18000ft and 410mph at sea level, coupled together with outstanding maneuverability, firepower and excellent visibility.

As for the Dora-13 being the fastest in WWII, the d.H. Hornet and Fury I match it for speed, the Spiteful exceeds it by 9mph. There are also those dubious 500mph+ claims for the P-47.

[kool kitty89]

I doubt any production P-47 did 500 mph, maybe 480 w/out wing pylons for the P-47M, but that's pushing it.

The XP-47J did do 507 mph at 32,000 ft iirc. Though this was also in the razorback configuration which had less drag than the bubbletop. (hence why bubbletop P-47's and P-51's were generaly slower than their razorback counterparts)

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

I doubt any production P-47 did 500 mph, maybe 480 w/out wing pylons for the P-47M, but that's pushing it.

The XP-47J did do 507 mph at 32,000 ft iirc. Though this was also in the razorback configuration which had less drag than the bubbletop. (hence why bubbletop P-47's and P-51's were generaly slower than their razorback counterparts)

KK- I suspect the added 600+ pounds of weight for the tear drop top P-51D had a lot more to do with the slight drop in airspeed and climb and turn... and how would you account for a 51H being 20-40mph faster than the P-51B/C at the same weight? (The 1650-9 was slightly more powerful at altitude than the -3 but other than that)?

Otherwise I don't have the drag figures for the H so I am NOT claiming aerodynamics is the sole factor.

[Soren]

The P-51H featured a new prop an a MUCH more powerful engine than the P-51B/C, hence its superior speed. (To go from 1,790 HP to 2,280 HP is quite a jump!)

KK is right about the bubble canopy, it creates suction and thus drag, and that is why the razorbacks are slightly faster.

[Hunter368]

Good stuff guys

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

The P-51H featured a new prop an a MUCH more powerful engine than the P-51B/C, hence its superior speed. (To go from 1,790 HP to 2,280 HP is quite a jump!)

KK is right about the bubble canopy, it creates suction and thus drag, and that is why the razorbacks are slightly faster.

You may have mis interpreted Lednicer's reports. 'Suction' is the opposite of 'Separation' in the model results. If you re-read them you may notice 1.) that the 'suction' area for the 51Wing and Fuselage has a far greater 'suction' area and by definition, less 'separation' in the model, and 2.) Lednicer's model correctly arrives at drag values for 'wetted area Drag Coefficient' with good approximation to wind tunnels'.

This whole exercise was to predict total drag in context of profile, friction and induced drag to compare against wind tunnel results.

Second point. May I draw your attention to Table 1 where the total Drag Coefficients for the B and D are the same despite greater wetted surface area. After reviewing the boundary conditions and the pressure distribution plots I conclude that the difference is the canopy, and specifically the canopy slope effect on delayed separation - how do you 'interpret' the results otherwise?

Third point. The engine profiles between a -3, a -7 and a -9 for the B, D and H respectively show
B 1600BHP at 67" @11,800 Low Blower WE
D 1720BHP at 67" @ 6,200 Low Blower WE
H 1930BHP at 80"/water inj @ 10,100 Low Blower and the same as the -3 w/o water

B 1330BHP at 67" @23,000 High Blower
D 1505BHP at 67" @19,300 High Blower
H 1630BHP at 80" @ 23,500 High Blower WE (wet) same as the -3 w/o water

So, what references do you have in mind for the Mustang for your figures? or Conclusions..

[Hunter368]

Good stuff Bill.

[kool kitty89]

I think by "suction" Soren meant the lower preassure on the aft part of the bubble canopy (a slight vacuum), similar to the phenomon at the tail of a bullet.

And I think the 2,280 hp figure is for 90" Hg. Though that's down to 1,800 hp at altitude. (still a hell of alot more than earlier 'stangs had) http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...powercurve.jpg

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...-8284-pg12.jpg

[kool kitty89]

Originally Posted by drgondog

KK- I suspect the added 600+ pounds of weight for the tear drop top P-51D had a lot more to do with the slight drop in airspeed and climb and turn... and how would you account for a 51H being 20-40mph faster than the P-51B/C at the same weight? (The 1650-9 was slightly more powerful at altitude than the -3 but other than that)?

Otherwise I don't have the drag figures for the H so I am NOT claiming aerodynamics is the sole factor.

The phrasing seems a little confusing, but I assume the added 600 lbs from going to the B to D Mustang. (I don't think switching to the Bubble canopy changed weight much)

The bubble canopy was one of the reasons in drop in speed. Plus weight has a much larger effect on climb than speed. Streamining has the opposite effect. (speed much more than climb)

It was mostly the power that would have given the speed; as seen here: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...perf-91444.jpg going from 8,000 lbs to 10,000 lbs only changes max speed by less than 10 mph. (a bit more of a change above 30,000 ft, but almost no change in speed at all down low)


On the P-47 the bubble canopy lost it ~5 mph top speed. The wing pylons cut 10-15 mph off speed. (much more on early versions, though not on any standard production versions iirc)

The nose of the P-47J helped speed as well. (prabably added ~20 mph)