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04-09-2007, 10:30 AM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,876
| Quote:
Originally Posted by plan_D  The B5N2 had no defensive armour or self-sealing fuel tanks, it was no more survivable than the Swordfish. Range and speed of the B5N2 were superior to the Swordfish, while the Swordfish was more stable at the slower speeds during the torpedo run. | The purpose of a torpedo bomber is to get out to attack the enemy.
The Kates superior range and speed meant attacks could be launched further from the carrier.
In 1942, the USN was at a disadvantage in this regards. Remember that it takes time to launch a full stike force, and the more range you have, the sooner you can get everyone formed up and enroute to your enemy.
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04-09-2007, 10:36 AM
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#17 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,615
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by plan_D The B5N2 had no defensive armour or self-sealing fuel tanks, it was no more survivable than the Swordfish. Range and speed of the B5N2 were superior to the Swordfish, while the Swordfish was more stable at the slower speeds during the torpedo run. | The aircraft was still more protected and more "durrable" than a fabric covered aircraft. There is more to it than dodging bullets.
You give me a choice between a faster metal mono wing aircraft or a slow fabric covered bi plane I will take the metal mono wing any day.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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04-09-2007, 10:39 AM
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#18 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,542
Country:  | Same here, as well the Kate had a better combat record...
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04-09-2007, 10:46 AM
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#19 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,538
Country: | The Swordfish was an underdog through out its career but performed well but I think much of its accomplishments were based on its crew's skill and determination.
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04-09-2007, 11:06 AM
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#20 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: UK
Posts: 3,435
Country:  | I agree best and most successful are 2 different things however while I agree with you that the Kate was a better TB, I disagree with you Joe on the Kate being more successful than the Stringbag. IMO the Med campaign supplies evidence that the Stringbags effectiveness was not bettered.
I agree Pearl was a huge success for the Kate but it was also an attack with the opponant whether by suprise or poor leadership unprepared, Taranto was an enemy already at war and geared up for defence.
21 Stringbags as opposed to (I believe) over 400 Japanese aircraft around a 100 of which I think where Kates.
The tonnage of vessels attributed to Swordfish attacks rose consistantly during the North African campaign although the land based Swordfish claimed an average of 50,000 tonnes per month it is more likely to be a total around 250.000 - 300,000 tonnes of non naval vessels for all stringbags in all campaigns both sea & land borne. The total for naval tonnage sunk by torpedo launched attacks is not a figure I have settled on but it does seem to be an amount well in excess of 150,000 tonnes but as I say sorting out the weaponry deployed by the Stringbags for a given action is proving a bit of a devil to find out as it ended up a jack of all trades. Although I can find kills, the details are somewhat more elusive and where a mixed action occured & it tends to be hard to define the Coup De Gra aircraft. For ex-sample USS Arizona bombed and torpedoed as opposed to say the 15 Stringbag U boat kills that were solo efforts.(around 18,000 tonnes but again using a mixture of ordanance ) .
Never the less I will deffinately go with the argument that the Kate was a better TB , but I think not as successful as the Stringbag.
PS
(800kg Torpedo for Kate) (730kg for Swordfish) so very close in torpedo payload and although the Japanese plane launched type 91 torpedos were very good so were the 18inch Duplex triggered British models (neither IMO as good as the ship borne Long Lance though). | |
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04-09-2007, 11:09 AM
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#21 | | Member
Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Canada
Posts: 98
Country:  | Don't forget they used the swordfish in 1944 against the german e-boats with a fair amount of sucess too. | |
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04-09-2007, 11:11 AM
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#22 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,876
| I also think the Swordfish would have been at an even worse situation as compared to the Devestator when it came to attacking IJN carrier task forces.
It simply didnt have the speed to get in close enough to launch its torpedo.
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04-09-2007, 11:37 AM
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#23 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: UK
Posts: 3,435
Country: | I agree SYS 3 it was a real old bus and totally out of date by 1939 when up against any real aircover the Stringbag got shot to bits (re the channel dash) | |
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04-09-2007, 11:53 AM
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#24 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,209
Country: | Being pretty much an eurocentric is that i want to make a question regarding the planes of the Navy in the PTO:
Did all their planes carry their torpedoes internally? That seems like a very interesting feature; it would seem to me that particular caracteristic greatly improved the performance of the plane while flying loaded with a torpedo.
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04-09-2007, 11:57 AM
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#25 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,876
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Udet Being pretty much an eurocentric is that i want to make a question regarding the planes of the Navy in the PTO:
Did all their planes carry their torpedoes internally? That seems like a very interesting feature; it would seem to me that particular caracteristic greatly improved the performance of the plane while flying loaded with a torpedo. | I know the Avenger carried its torpedo internally for just that reason.
I will have to check the IJN designs.
But, prior to 1942, all torpedo bombers carried its payload externally.
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04-09-2007, 01:51 PM
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#26 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,876
| Heres some info on the IJN aerial torpedo's.
Type 91
Mod 1 17.7" diameter, 17' 4" length, 1728 lbs. weight, 331 lbs. warhead. 2000m @ 41 kts 260 kts. An older torpedo that was still being used in some land-based JNAF torpedo-bomber squadrons at the beginning of the war, including some of the units ('Nells') which attacked and sank Repulse and the Prince of Wales.
Type 91
Mod 2 17.7" diameter, 18' 0" length, 1841 lbs. weight, 452 lbs. warhead. 2000m @ 41 kts 260 kts. First deployed in April, 1941. Carried by the 'Kate' torpedo bombers which attacked Pearl Harbor.
Type 91
Mod 3 17.7" diameter, 17' 4" length, 1872 lbs. weight, 529 lbs. warhead. 2000m @ 41 kts 260 kts. First deployed in mid- to late-1942.
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04-09-2007, 02:50 PM
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#27 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,209
Country: | Very interesting syscom. Thanks.
So the avenger was the only torpedo bomber used by the Navy?
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04-09-2007, 03:02 PM
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#28 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,538
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by trackend I disagree with you Joe on the Kate being more successful than the Stringbag. | Actually I said the opposite...
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04-09-2007, 03:02 PM
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#29 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,051
Country:  | If we're solely comparing the Swordfish Mk.I to the B5N2 and disregarding everything but the torpedo-bomber role, then the B5N2 is quite extensively superior to the Swordfish.
The Swordfish was not completely fabric covered; the front sections were metal and the lower wings on the Mk.II were also metal. The survivability on both types was poor if any enemy aircraft were about.
All the torpedo bombers were painfully slow when carrying their torpedo, especially when going in for the bomb run. The Swordfish was the more stable of them all when doing the low speed run required to drop the torpedo.
I'm not saying the Swordfish is the best but it can't be written off instantly because looks older than the rest.
__________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004  To those in that club. | |
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04-09-2007, 03:38 PM
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#30 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 7,876
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Udet Very interesting syscom. Thanks.
So the avenger was the only torpedo bomber used by the Navy? | The TBD devestator was used through the battle of Midway and then quickly retired.
The TBF Avenger made its debut at Midway in a limited role (it was based on the island, not the carriers).
Those are the only two USN torpedo bombers I know of.
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