Best Pre-war Battleship/Battlecruiser

[freebird]

Originally Posted by slaterat

The Renown and the Repulse recieved quite different rebuilds. The Repulse was quite limited, while the Renown was extensively rebuilt.

I picked the Renown as it was the best of the RN rebuilds. Its deck armour was increased to a 6 inch main deck topped by another deck of 2-4 inches.AFAIK the deck totaled 10 inches over the magazines. She was still capable of 29 knots and had an excellant secondary arament of 20 4.5 inch guns. Originally built with an internal anti torpedoe bulge she had another external one added. Therefore at the start of WW II the Renown was the best RN capital ship, being the fastest with the heaviest deck armour as well as the best protected against air attack. Her biggest weakness would be the narrow 9 inch main belt, but overall the most useful of the RN rebuilds. The Renown was a better ship than the Hood ,whose deck armour was spread over three decks. The poor Hood was to have been modernized similar to the Renown, but the war started and the rest is history.

Slaterat

Good reasoning. But what source do you use for the deck armour stats? 10" sounds a little high, but if it was thats incredible protection.

Also it isn't mentioned in the poll, but does "best ship" include ships crew? The Renown/Repulse had much more experience than some of the other BC's/BB's, the performance of Repulse in the South China Sea {avoiding 4 Torpedo/bomb attacks before the fatal one} is mainly a result of the skill of the Capitan/Helm. {and could have survived had the RAF Buffalos been called for as soon as the air attack began}

[parsifal]

Highly doubtful that Fze Z could have survived, in my opinion. Japanese losses would have increased, but the japanese had quite a numbe of LR Torpedo Bombers uncommitted to the battle, as at the time of the sinking. Matsungaga, the Commander of the air corps with the brief to sink the the two British ships was boarding a G3M to personally lead the last wave, should they be needed. I believe there were at least 17 Nells not committed to the strike as at the last sinking.

From memory, Force Z was only ever promised 6 Buffaloes as aircover, with each only a relatively short time over the target.

Now, it would have been a different story if the Indefatigable had not hit a rock enroute with the two Capital ships, and had been available to provide local aircover

[dysonsphere]

Hmmm Hood would have been top if her rebuild along the lines of then QE class had been carried out. Nelson and Rodney were good in theory but were too slow and suffered from main armanent problems for their whole life. Including restrictions on permissable arcs of fire. Also the 6" twin turrets were not much use AA was more important.

[Glider]

I admit the Renown and Nelson make a good combination. Both had good deck armour and by 1939 standards, very good LAA guns. The Renown had an unmatched HAA defence which were useful as anti destroyer weapons and the Nelson had a good 6in secondary defence.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Highly doubtful that Fze Z could have survived, in my opinion. Japanese losses would have increased, but the japanese had quite a numbe of LR Torpedo Bombers uncommitted to the battle, as at the time of the sinking. Matsungaga, the Commander of the air corps with the brief to sink the the two British ships was boarding a G3M to personally lead the last wave, should they be needed. I believe there were at least 17 Nells not committed to the strike as at the last sinking.

From memory, Force Z was only ever promised 6 Buffaloes as aircover, with each only a relatively short time over the target.

Now, it would have been a different story if the Indefatigable had not hit a rock enroute with the two Capital ships, and had been available to provide local aircover

Actually the final wave {the Japanese launched from several directions at once, after the Repulse had already successfully "combed" 3 TB waves} was almost the LAST group of TB's on hand, and they were already low on fuel. The remaining Nell's had 250 & 500 lb bombs, Force Z had already evaded several bomb attacks with minimum damage. Even 6 buffalos would have been enough to disrupt unescorted bombers trying to launch torpedoes.

If the Buffaloes had showed up and prevented the Japanese from launching a multi-directional attack on the Repulse, and assuming that Capt. Tennant had retreated to Singapore, the Japanese would not have enough time to launch again {from Indo-China bases}

It was actually HMS Indomitable that was scraping rocks in the Caribbean. The other 2 "I" {Implacable} class would take a couple more years to complete. {Not to nit-pick or anything}

[parsifal]

Yes you are correct about the ship names. For some reqson I always get the two mixed up..... very embarrassing

[freebird]

Originally Posted by parsifal

Yes you are correct about the ship names. For some reqson I always get the two mixed up..... very embarrassing

not as embarassing as the G-L-A-C-I-A-L speed that the British built the Implacables 4.5 years to build a desparatly needed A/C! In wartime! Lucky for the British that the Germans could hold out during 1944 or else those d**m carriers would have missed the war!

Anyways, back on topic....

Originally Posted by dysonsphere

Hmmm Hood would have been top if her rebuild along the lines of then QE class had been carried out. Nelson and Rodney were good in theory but were too slow and suffered from main armanent problems for their whole life. Including restrictions on permissable arcs of fire. Also the 6" twin turrets were not much use AA was more important.

The Nelson's were slow it is true, but every other foreign BB in 1939 was 22 knots or slower, except for the 2 Nagato class and the 2 re-built Italian "Cavours". The Italian ships with 10 x 13.5" guns would be at a distinct disatavntage against the heavily armoured Nelsons with 9 x 16" guns.

Are we taking into account fire control here?

[parsifal]

The Nelson's were slow it is true, but every other foreign BB in 1939 was 22 knots or slower, except for the 2 Nagato class and the 2 re-built Italian "Cavours". The Italian ships with 10 x 13.5" guns would be at a distinct disatavntage against the heavily armoured Nelsons with 9 x 16" guns.

There were a few additional exceptions to that. The warspite was slightly faster at 24.5 knots, as was Malaya (I believe). The Ises and Fusos were even faster, at 24.9 knots. The russian Marat "class" was classified as 24 knot ships, but I have never been able to confirm that. There were actually 4 Italian BBs, the Dorias and the cavours, although it is true that Italy went to war with just two BBs ready (which makes a bit of a joke out of these armchair strategists that argue italy should have acted more agressively than she did at the start of the war).

All of the R class, and every US BB were agonizingly slow, particulalry in a heavy sea.

But I agree with your main point, the Nelsons were not as badly affected by speed, when you dont compare them with the later "super dreadnoughts". And i think they reprsented excellent value for money, as is the case for all the Brit BBs/BCs

Are we taking into account fire control here?

Absolutely, as well as all the other factors, like armour distibution, compartmentation, radar, etc etc[/quote]

[freebird]

Originally Posted by parsifal

There were a few additional exceptions to that. The Warspite was slightly faster at 24.5 knots, as was Malaya (I believe). The Ises and Fusos were even faster, at 24.9 knots.

All of the QE's were originally supposed to make 25 knots, but time + wear & tear take their toll.

Were the Ise's & Fuso's able to do 24.9 in 1940 or only at time of building? I had read that by 1940 these older ships were down to about 22 - 23. The Japanese were busy building new BB's, CA's & CV's so did not have much space & time to overhaul the old BB's

The russian Marat "class" was classified as 24 knot ships, but I have never been able to confirm that. There were actually 4 Italian BBs, the Dorias and the cavours, although it is true that Italy went to war with just two BBs ready (which makes a bit of a joke out of these armchair strategists that argue italy should have acted more agressively than she did at the start of the war).

All of the R class, and every US BB were agonizingly slow, particulalry in a heavy sea.

Not to mention the Italian ships had smaller main guns, and without radar. {+ no CV's}

[Juha]

The money put on the modernization of Renown was probably well spent. One main function of fast capital ships was the screening of carriers and in that work good heavy AA was essential. Of course Renown suffered from the fact that RN heavy AA fire control wasn't in par of that of the latest of USN, IJN and KM systems. But IIRC Scharnhorsts system, at least initially, had also its problems. And Renown's surface fire control was good as was shown during its duel with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau off Norwegian coast in 1940.

IMHO Scharnhorsts were too lightly armed and Dunkerques AA was too weak. So choice must be one of the older ships.

Juha

[parsifal]

[quote=freebird;354624]Were the Ise's & Fuso's able to do 24.9 in 1940 or only at time of building? I had read that by 1940 these older ships were down to about 22 - 23. The Japanese were busy building new BB's, CA's & CV's so did not have much space & time to overhaul the old BB's

As far as I know, this was the post refit speed of the Japanese BBs. I have never read in any source a material anything to suggest that the Jap BBs suffered from such a catastrophic loss of spped. Speed was the ace for the japanese BBs in relation to all other nationalities, particularly in relation to the Americans.

Perhaps as the war progressed it is possible that the lack of refit might have degraded their performance, but again I doubt it. The fleet speed for the Japanese was never less than 24 knots, and these two classes were always considered able to keep up with the fleet.

Are you sure that the Warspites were originally able to do 25 knots. My sources say they were designed to do 23.5 knots. The 1937 refit trumpets the fact that speed was incresed to 24.5 knots, which was considered by many to be a critical issue.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by parsifal

As far as I know, this was the post refit speed of the Japanese BBs. I have never read in any source a material anything to suggest that the Jap BBs suffered from such a catastrophic loss of spped. Speed was the ace for the japanese BBs in relation to all other nationalities, particularly in relation to the Americans.

Are you sure that the Warspites were originally able to do 25 knots. My sources say they were designed to do 23.5 knots. The 1937 refit trumpets the fact that speed was incresed to 24.5 knots, which was considered by many to be a critical issue.

Sorry, my mistake I had the Japanese BB info backwards. The Fuso's & Ise's ORIGINAL speed was 22.5 -23 knots, your quoted speed was AFTER the 1930's re-fit.

According to HazeGray the original QE design was for 25 knots, but were overweight at launch and then had bulges & more armour added, so they could only make 23.5 knots or so until the late 30's re-fit

Haze Gray & Underway World Battleship Lists

[Patoruzu]

I mean speed can balance the other 2 parameters - and I guess the Scharnhorst and Dunkerque have the better hull from the list.
So I stand for Scharnhorst

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Patoruzu

I mean speed can balance the other 2 parameters - and I guess the Scharnhorst and Dunkerque have the better hull from the list.
So I stand for Scharnhorst

If she had bigger guns than 11" I might agree with you. As it was they were at a disadvantage facing the Renown {or other British Battlecruiser}, which is partly why they retired from the engagement with the Renown in April of 1940, even though it was 2 German BC's against 1 British BC.

[delcyros]

The QE´s were originally designed to make 25.0 Kts @ 72.000 SHP. This figure most likely does include the design overload estimate for the machinery and was a bit on the optimistic side as trials showed. The Barham was tried over a measured mile on 6.7.1916 with approx. 79% of her maximum fuel, drawing 32ft6" forward and 33ft aft on an displacement of 32.250 t. The average figure in four runs at "utmost power" were 23.9 Kts and 70.790 SHP with the best run at 23.97 Kts and 71.370 SHP respectively. The Valiant was known to be slower by this time due to problems with turbine nozzles. During the Run to the North, when working up to overload conditions, the Barham is believed to have achieved revolutions for 25 Kts, translating into a speed of 23.8 Kts.
After their refits /rebuilds, all units differed substantially. Malaya and Barham never changed from their original machinery and likely were limited for engine wear reasons to less than 23 Kts. Warpsite, Valiant and Queen Elizabeth are reported to have achieved speeds slightly above 24.0 Kts with top speed figures around 24.5 for the Queen Elizabeth.
The "R"´s were much slower after their refits and there are credible sources suggesting that some have been limited to 19 Kts max.