Best Pre-war Battleship/Battlecruiser

[parsifal]

I think the low freeboard of the "R" Class had a lot to do with their low sea speeds. Their theoretical maximum was in the order of 21-22 kts, but the effective maximums were less than that. Same applies to the US BBs mentioned

[delcyros]

Originally Posted by parsifal

I think the low freeboard of the "R" Class had a lot to do with their low sea speeds. Their theoretical maximum was in the order of 21-22 kts, but the effective maximums were less than that. Same applies to the US BBs mentioned

That is what I am thinking of.
The Revenge class originally was designed for a top speed of 23.0 Kts (possibly including design overload) altough that appeared to have been optimistic and in trials these ships could only achieve a little more than 22 Kts at close to 75% full displacement. With bulges added, this speed dropped considerably.

[drgondog]

I am wondering about the pre-war definition leading to a point.

The BB-56 the USS Washington was the second of the North Carolina class but design changes of significance were made an the keel was laid down in 1938 and sailed before we entered the WWII.

Excluding this is of course the prerogative of the Poll.

I would cite this beast which had 9 - 16" and 27kts speed as the best of the list, acknowledge the Hood to be my second choice with reservations for the top deck armor - designed before airpower would have forced more thought to this.

I like the speed of many of the lighter ships because they had more choice regarding engagement from a sea perspective... but if, when, they decideded to duke it out with other bigger capital ships they should be at more risk.

[parsifal]

Hi DDG

It would be a no-contest if we were to include the North Carolinas/Sth Dakotas.

Your point about speed over protection is perhaps two of the three variables in BB design. the three main criteria are speed, protection, and fireppower. It is an equation that warship designers wrestled with from the first Dreadnought right through to the last. And IMO, there is no definitive right answer.....

[freebird]

Originally Posted by drgondog

I am wondering about the pre-war definition leading to a point.

The BB-56 the USS Washington was the second of the North Carolina class but design changes of significance were made an the keel was laid down in 1938 and sailed before we entered the WWII.

Excluding this is of course the prerogative of the Poll.

I would cite this beast which had 9 - 16" and 27kts speed as the best of the list, acknowledge the Hood to be my second choice with reservations for the top deck armor - designed before airpower would have forced more thought to this.
.

North Carolina's were not available until mid-1941, even then with some vibration problems. The poll only includes pre-1940 ships, the class of 1940 {King G. V., Bismarck, Littorio, Richelieu} are not included

The KGV was laid down in 1937, and Bismarck was laid down in '37 or '38

[delcyros]

Do you think the Scharnhorst was harder to sink than the Hood?

I believe so. Hood was larger and sheer size helps absorbing damage and it really had a good armour protection but Scharnhorst had a higher degree of compartimentation, a significantly superior margin of metacentric height, more complete arrangements of the pumping equipment and last but not least no trouble with volatile propellants. However, Scharnhorst was also a much newer design, so this really shouldn´t surprise us.
Applying Your definition to our thread would mean that the Schanrhorst class could not have participated here. Basically, these BB´s were still in a process of refitting the new atlantic bowsection by outbreak of the hostilities.

[renrich]

My choice is Hood with the Kongos in second place. Both classes had been up armored, still had good speed( enough to steam with the carriers) and formidable armament.

[parsifal]

Whether one supports the battlecruiser concept, or the battleship concept is a difficut one, and the whole point of this thread. Does one emphasize the speed part of the three way equation, the protection part, or the firepower part. The ships included fall roughly into those completed before the outbreak of the war (Scharnhorst is a bit of a strech, but was sufficiently completed as to qualify IMO). The ships excluded are the super dreadnoughts, because they encompassed a much more complete solution to the gun/armour/speed equation and introduced certain new technologies like radar control etc (which were also fitted in these earlier ships as well, I know.

The tricky bit about this thread is determining what is the right mix of the various ingredients.

With regard to Scharnhorst, she possessed two of the ingredients, speed and protection. She lacked firepower, in relation to her opponents. She is, incidentally my favourite german capital ship.

[Kurfürst]

Mine as well, even though the Bismarcks are meaner, tougher in every possible way, the Scharnhorsts, with their display of the classic German-style Battlecruiser merits - regardless whatever they were called during their career - were always a lot more interesting, and more tactical ships to me.

[parsifal]

Its intersting to specualte if the germans had not built the Bismarcks, they could have built roughly 8 Pocket Battleships, or four more Scharhorsts (roughly) and not be in breach of the anglo-german naval treaty. They could not build additional U-Boats,without breaking the tonnage limits (which would have brought a swift reaction from the british). My opinion is that 8 Pocket Battleships (to a more modern design) instead of two Bismarcks would represent a far better investment. And this was the decision posed before the "Z" plan was finally adopted

[renrich]

I don't believe Scharnhorst and her sister ship can be classified as battle cruisers. The original battle cruiser concept as codified by Jacky Fisher was a ship with very high speed, BB type armament but with cruiser type armor. The German BCs in WW1 had somewhat more armor than the British with slightly smaller guns and a knot or two less speed but still fit the formula. The Scharnhorst, to me, would have to be called a fast BB with puny armament. A WW2 classic BC would be the Alaska class with very high speed, 12 inch guns and rather light armor.