Best WWII Air-Force

[drgondog]

Jeez - I didn't see a catagory for JNAF and JAF or RAF and Fleet AF or LW and Kriegsmarine?

Anybody for looking at American Air Force and ready for a Debate?

Any Air force whether seaborne, England based, italy based, Pacific island based, Carrier Based, China based and America based compare to USA after 1942? Not disputing RAF or USSR ot LW or Japanese strength in 1943 but where were they globally and in what strength (and quality)?

Relative to 1942 can you illustrate a national air presence that accomplished the quantum leaps from 1942 to 1943 to 1944 like America?

Is there any question - really?

I know - I'm breathing my own air again...

Bill

[Lucky13]

Sorry for interrupting fellow intellectuals.... I might have missed it but, how many of these operated under all the worst conditions? Luftwaffe you found in the desert, freezing winter in Russia, in the hot and humid djungle, don't think so. USAAF, you found in the djungle, desert but not in the freezing Russian winter... How would USAAF have handled the winter with temperatures below -30 and -40 and how would Luftwaffe have handled djungle fighting? As you fellas know I'm here to learn and share a few steady more or less legal flowing.....well you know. Who's buying the next round?

Just remembered, Aleutians(?) were they comparable with the easternfront weatherwise? You also found the USN out in the Atlantinc, you know what I mean.

[flojo]

To make a point for the Luftwaffe I want to remark that the V2 was the only modern strategic strike capability available to any nation at the end of WW2. It could reach GB unpunished while the allied offensive with heavy bombers against Germany made a massive air superiority with respect to escort fighters necessary to work. Of course startegic rocket forces were in a state of infancy at that time but as history had shown it was the direction to develop further (and unfortunately the thing every mad dictator all over the world is also longing to possess today).

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Sorry for interrupting fellow intellectuals.... I might have missed it but, how many of these operated under all the worst conditions? Luftwaffe you found in the desert, freezing winter in Russia, in the hot and humid djungle, don't think so. USAAF, you found in the djungle, desert but not in the freezing Russian winter... How would USAAF have handled the winter with temperatures below -30 and -40 and how would Luftwaffe have handled djungle fighting? As you fellas know I'm here to learn and share a few steady more or less legal flowing.....well you know. Who's buying the next round?

Just remembered, Aleutians(?) were they comparable with the easternfront weatherwise? You also found the USN out in the Atlantinc, you know what I mean.

The RAF operated in all these environments and USAF aircraft operated in Russia although operated by Russia, so I don't see any difficulty in the USA also operating in these conditions. Also I don't see why Germany should have any difficulty operating in the Jungle, the difference in mainly tactics and the Ju87 would have been almost ideal for accurate GA work in the Jungle.

Any reason why they shouldn't be able to?

[Lucky13]

Not at all Glider. If you're gonna compare Air Forces, I just wanted to see if they operated under similar conditions you know....
Feel free to cerrect me if I'm wrong here, but I think that the Russian anf Finnish Air Force were the only ones operating close to and above the Polarcircle, right?

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by flojo

To make a point for the Luftwaffe I want to remark that the V2 was the only modern strategic strike capability available to any nation at the end of WW2. It could reach GB unpunished while the allied offensive with heavy bombers against Germany made a massive air superiority with respect to escort fighters necessary to work. Of course startegic rocket forces were in a state of infancy at that time but as history had shown it was the direction to develop further (and unfortunately the thing every mad dictator all over the world is also longing to possess today).

Thankfully Flojo the US had a 'modern' strategic capability (that trumped the LW V2) that was never used more than twice... and every mad dictator and terrorist wants one of those even by 1945 standards, even more than the V2.

I didn't mention it in my earlier post but does any AF discussed, relative to WWII, have the strategic power of one US XXI BC B-29 named the Enola Gay on the morning of August 6, 1945?

If the Poll Question was "Which AF was greatest on 3 September, 1939 versus which one was most powerful on September 2, 1945" I would have a different answer

But the world view of what airpower "meant" changed very dramatically on 6 August, 1945

Respectfully,

Bill

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Not at all Glider. If you're gonna compare Air Forces, I just wanted to see if they operated under similar conditions you know....
Feel free to cerrect me if I'm wrong here, but I think that the Russian anf Finnish Air Force were the only ones operating close to and above the Polarcircle, right?

The US had the 11th AF in Alaska.

[Lucky13]

Ok, cheers Syscom...

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

Not at all Glider. If you're gonna compare Air Forces, I just wanted to see if they operated under similar conditions you know....
Feel free to cerrect me if I'm wrong here, but I think that the Russian anf Finnish Air Force were the only ones operating close to and above the Polarcircle, right?

Almost, but not quite. The RAF flew with the Russians for a while, initially to show them what the RAF aircraft could do and then assist the Russians with the influx of British leand lease aircraft.

[Lucky13]

ok, cheers Glider...

[flojo]

I expected that somebody immediately would refer to the A-bomb in reaction to my post drgondog. If the question would have been which military force was the most powerful I would of course rate the A-bomb as much more important than the ballistic rocket. But I think that an A-bomb in principle is no airforce device per se but could be also used by Navy, Army etc. Ballistic missiles on the other hand traditionally afaik belong to the air force branch in most countries. Nevertheless, I my opinion this poll is senseless in the way that we never will all agree which air force was best mainly because we not even will agree on the criterions to decide this. But this poll is very worthy to surface new aspects not everybody has thought before. Because of that I wanted to mentioned that since the beginning of 1944 there were also other possibilities to gain a strategic strike capability besides the classic heavybomber force.

Originally Posted by drgondog

Thankfully Flojo the US had a 'modern' strategic capability (that trumped the LW V2) that was never used more than twice... and every mad dictator and terrorist wants one of those even by 1945 standards, even more than the V2.

I didn't mention it in my earlier post but does any AF discussed, relative to WWII, have the strategic power of one US XXI BC B-29 named the Enola Gay on the morning of August 6, 1945?

If the Poll Question was "Which AF was greatest on 3 September, 1939 versus which one was most powerful on September 2, 1945" I would have a different answer

But the world view of what airpower "meant" changed very dramatically on 6 August, 1945

Respectfully,

Bill

[Schmeck]

I say Luftwaffe they fought well for being outnumbered most of the war, also they got some good aces.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Schmeck

I say Luftwaffe they fought well for being outnumbered most of the war, also they got some good aces.

But the LW was lacking in the following area's:

1) Naval aviation in all catagories
2) Transports
3) Heavy bombers
4) Training large numbers of pilots
5) A strategic doctrine

[drgondog]

Flojo - you have good points about ballistic missles and also about the framework of the debate.

What I would have said in the context of 'Best' is that the debate could have been framed along the lines of Best by Different Categories as a function of time.

But having said that no matter how you rank it as long as you are objective (about production, performance, numbers, etc) in each category the existance of the V1, as important of that manefestation of technology was for good and bad for mankind) was barely and marginally describable as 'strategic.

Certainly the A4 extends the footprint and certainly possession of the nuclear capability to couple with the A4 ,(wasn't that the multiple stage version? - CRS) that would then change the dynamics of a poll like this but I don't see how it alters the results for a snapshot in time (during WWII).

If a debate like this reduced to some boundary conditions proposed by Syscom even the most ardent despiser of US airpower ranking at the end of 1944, much less 1945 could not conclude otherwise.

In contrast with Germany (forget about numbers for the moment) US had the most powerful fleet arm, capable of projecting great power away from land range of US Army, offensively and defensively (against the U-Boat);

it had a great Logistics Command capable of the Berlin airlift in the foreseeable future with same mix, it had massive delivery of airborne divisions (and the Only Airborne Divisions that never suffered defeat in WWII - east or west);

it had strategic bomber force (I will concede the He177 Finally as an excellent bomber but sadly never viewed by the luftwaffe in that way - dive brakes for crissake!) which only the RAF could remotely come close to - and that was in comparison with 8th AF alone

It had strategic escort fighters and interceptors on par or close in performance if beaten individually

It had great TACair, again which the USSR and/or RAF could approximate in mix and quality

I won't bore you as I already have with discussion of the medium bomber strike forces (in number alone Army/Navy/USMC combined) starts to approximate the tonnage capability of than RAF Bomber Command in 1945)

I would say Luftwaffe wins hands down September 1939 with Japan second
, RAF third, US and maybe Italy fourth and USSR last.

In 1945 I would rank US, RAF(combined w/Empire) , USSR, LW, Japan

Regards,

Bill

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Good post.

I agree with you fully.

In 1939 the Luftwaffe was the premier air fleet, but by 1945 the best was the US hands down. It certainly had the best bomber fleet and it did have the long range escorts to follow them.

If you count the US Navy in with this the US Air fleets could be projected litterally anywhere in the world.

I am not talking aircraft here per say but just the capabilities of the air forces. 1945 US has it hands down.