Best WWII Air-Force

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If you go back and read the posts you will see that I said from 1939 to 1943 the Luftwaffe was the best but from that point on the the US took over.

Overall the best airforce of the war was the US if you look from where they started to where they finished.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Marcel

Not to dispute your point Adler, but also the US was not the best during the entire war. At the end (1944-1945) yes, but when the US got involved in 1941 it was lacking in equipment. Their main fighters, the P39 and P40 were a nice planes but hardly a match to the contemporary Spitfire of Messerschmitt. Also the US had a lot of catching up to do in airforce tactics at that time. Luckily they learned fast. So if you're talking about the time from mid 1943 to the end of the war, I would say, yes, the USAAF was the best airforce in almost every aspect (except maybe in the area of jets). They had equipment, that was at least as good as everything the enemy had and they had a lot of it. But not so in 1942.
It's probably hard to say which airforce was best during the entire war. The germans were the best in 1939-1942. The americans after 1943. If I would point out an airforce that was very good during the entire war, it would be the RAF. Maybe they were never the best at any point, but they kept their high standard of modern, competative planes in decent numbers during the entire war, best on average I would say.

Your arguments are fine when talking about the first few years of the war. No argument. But its who's standing at the end that counts.

In 1944, the USAAF became the dominate AF in the world.

By the end of the war in 1945, it was getting more powerfull at an exponential rate.

[Marcel]

Exactly, the US the best of the war at the end, no dispute here. The LW the best at the beginning of the war, again no dispute here. But both a part of the war is what I'm saying. The RAF was at no particular point the best, I agree, but they could get along, fight the LW in 1940 and win and were still going strong in the end, maybe not the best, but always competative during the entire war, in my opinion, that's why I say "on average"

[trackend]

I think the USAAF was probably dominate before 1944 SY the production, development and training capabilities was not effected by bombing or lack of materials to anywhere near the extent that most other air forces had been.

[Marcel]

That's true, it's probably why the ended up being the mightiest airforce in the end, but in 1942.. I don't know.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by trackend

I think the USAAF was probably dominate before 1944 SY the production, development and training capabilities was not effected by bombing or lack of materials to anywhere near the extent that most other air forces had been.

Untill the P51's and P38L's came into being, then I would say the LW was slightly better than the USAAF.

Once those fighters began roaming Germany almost at will and systematiclly hunting down the LW, then the ending was clear.

[Soren]

Syscom3,

The B-29 was certainly an up to date design, no doubt, but again it wasn't more advanced than the newest German designs, the He-177 & He-277 both being competitive & able to carry a larger load (Btw, just like the He-177 the B-29 suffered engine troubles as-well) - and on top of this the Germans were fielding the much more advanced Jet fighters & bombers as-well as better & more advanced piston engined fighters.

In terms of technology the Germans were well ahead by wars end, and this has been admitted many times by the Allies. The Allies however possessed a far greater industrial capacity, and could therefore mass produce many able designs in such huge numbers that the German lead in technology was more than made up for.

Take the war on land for example, the tank being absolutely decisive, the German tanks were far far superior to the Allied tanks, but with a numerical advantage of over 6 to 1 the Allies again simply overran the grossly outnumbered Germans - quantity over quality.

Originally Posted by syscom3

Untill the P51's and P38L's came into being, then I would say the LW was slightly better than the USAAF.

P-38L ?? The Germans thought of it as a pig and it didn't do very well against the LW fighters at all - all it did rather well was pound the German ground forces. The P-38 did well as a fighter in the PTO where it was significantly faster than its opponents, in the ETO however it wasn't fast or maneuverable compared to the single seat fighters and it did poorly.

The P-51 on the other hand was a great asset to the US airforce as it had long range and was very competitive at the altitudes where the bombers operated, and the fact that in the air it was present in far greater numbers than the dedicated LW fighters & generally was piloted by better trained pilots proved very decisive as-well.

Once those fighters began roaming Germany almost at will and systematiclly hunting down the LW, then the ending was clear.

The P-51 proved very important because of its range & performance at high alt, the P-38 had no appreciable impact on the war, the P-47 & Tempest both did much better.

Lets all just be thankful that the LW didn't get the Me-262 in 1943 as planned, that would've changed the course of the war dramatically.


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Adler,

All your pointing out is that the US airforce was the most powerful, not that it was the best - the fact that the LW lacked trained pilots means it wasn't the best by late 1943 and onwards, despite its advantage in aircraft design & equipment.

The RAF is infact as strong a candidate in 1944 to 1945 as the USAAF.

As to which special purpose a/c the Allies lacked, well, what equalant special purpose a/c did the allies have compared to the Me-323 & Hs-129 for example ?

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Soren

Syscom3,

The B-29 was certainly an up to date design, no doubt, but again it wasn't more advanced than the newest German designs, the He-177 & He-277 both being competitive & able to carry a larger load (Btw, just like the He-177 the B-29 suffered engine troubles as-well) - and on top of this the Germans were fielding the much more advanced Jet fighters & bombers as-well as better & more advanced piston engined fighters.

You must be the only person in the world that thinks the -177 and -277 to be superior airplanes compared to the B29. And those engine troubles on the B29 were pretty much solved (from an operations point of view) in 1944 so that B29's were flying missions at a pretty decent sortie rate.

Do you have any mission summaries you would like to share with us to prove your assertion the German bombers were superior? And ummmm....... a few airplanes at the of the war, that hardly worked as advertised, does not make them superior.

In terms of technology the Germans were well ahead by wars end, and this has been admitted many times by the Allies.

Agree'd but for one caveat..... none of those advanced weapons made it to the mass production stage and/or changed the outcome of a battle.

The Allies however possessed a far greater industrial capacity, and could therefore mass produce many able designs in such huge numbers that the German lead in technology was more than made up for.

To put it simply, the allies mass producing weapons that in some cases were superior to what the Germans fielded, and in other cases, they were slightly inferior but were fielded in such massive numbers, the Germans could not gain the advantage. That means the Allied industrial capability was so immense, it negated the Germans advantage where it counted.

Take the war on land for example,

This is about the war in the air.

P-38L ?? The Germans thought of it as a pig and it didn't do very well against the LW fighters at all - all it did rather well was pound the German ground forces. The P-38 did well as a fighter in the PTO where it was significantly faster than its opponents, in the ETO however it wasn't fast or maneuverable compared to the single seat fighters and it did poorly.

You're thinking about its capabilities as a dogfighter, not in a macro sense. Of course it was an inferior dogfighter. But it was good enough as an escort fighter to keep the LW fighters away from the bombers. Mission accomplished for that. And then theres the range issue of the P38 vs the -109 and -190. The Lightning could fly to any point in the Western Europe, strafe, bomb, intercept.... and return home. The LW did not have that option.

And in the Pacific, its range did make all the difference n the world regarding what was the best fighter in that theater. The 109 and 190 didnt have the range needed to compete. So, the USAAF gets points for having a wide variety of fighters that could perform any misison, anywhere in the world.

The P-51 proved very important because of its range & performance at high alt, the P-38 had no appreciable impact on the war, the P-47 & Tempest both did much better.

See, youre thinking only in terms of the ETO and MTO. It was the P38 that won the air war in the SW Pacific and flew the 1600 mile radius missions.

Lets all just be thankful that the LW didn't get the Me-262 in 1943 as planned, that would've changed the course of the war dramatically.

That is a reflection of one of two things..... faulty technology and pushing an airplane into operation before it was ready.... or.... even worse...... a flawed command system that didnt know it had a first class interceptor and didnt use it wisely.


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Adler,

All your pointing out is that the US airforce was the most powerful, not that it was the best - the fact that the LW lacked trained pilots means it wasn't the best by late 1943 and onwards, despite its advantage in aircraft design & equipment.

The RAF is infact as strong a candidate in 1944 to 1945 as the USAAF.

Soren, you remind me of someone in hockey who complains to the ref that the other team is playing to rough.

And just what did the RAF possess in those years that made them as strong as the USAAF?

As to which special purpose a/c the Allies lacked, well, what equalant special purpose a/c did the allies have compared to the Me-323 & Hs-129 for example ?

C47, C46, C54 and, P47 and Typhoon for the other.

[Marcel]

And just what did the RAF possess in those years that made them as strong as the USAAF?

Spitfire, Tempest, Lancaster, Mustang, C47, Typhone, Mosquito, Halifax

[Glider]

Mustang, C47 ????

[rpiereck]

Brazilian Air Force... Senta a Púa!!

[lesofprimus]

Thats just retarded...

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

Syscom3,

The B-29 was certainly an up to date design, no doubt, but again it wasn't more advanced than the newest German designs, the He-177 & He-277 both being competitive & able to carry a larger load

Multi-engine tail draggers - their configuration was out of date!

The B-29 was light years a head of both aircraft, one of them being nothing more than a prototype and even with the B-29s teething problems it was still a way more capable aircraft than the 177 and it carried a bigger bomb load than both 177 and 277.

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Glider

Mustang, C47 ????

I know, american build , but we're comparing airforces, not manufacturers. And the Mustang original was a British order.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

Adler,

All your pointing out is that the US airforce was the most powerful, not that it was the best - the fact that the LW lacked trained pilots means it wasn't the best by late 1943 and onwards, despite its advantage in aircraft design & equipment.

And you still have not answered my questions about how the Luftwaffe was the best airforce. In order to be the best you have to have all these things you mentioned.

Just because you have technological advances in some areas does not mean you are the best. If you dont have air superiority you are not the best. True Germany did not have the industrial capacity to field as many aircraft but you know what this is not about who had the most industrial capacity. It is about the best airforce.

Originally Posted by Soren

As to which special purpose a/c the Allies lacked, well, what equalant special purpose a/c did the allies have compared to the Me-323 & Hs-129 for example ?

Germany did not need these so called "special purpose" aircraft to win a war. If they did they would have won the war.

As for the Me-323 it is not a "special purpose" aircraft. It is a heavy transport. What good did it do to the Luftwaffe to have this very slow aircraft? Nothing. The USAAF did not have it because it was not needed. The Luftwaffe proved it was not needed, it had not effect in winning the war for them.

As for the Hs-129 again it is not a "special purpose" aircraft. It is nothing more than a ground attack aircraft/tank buster and this the USAAF did have.

They had plenty of aircraft that were just as good at destroying tanks and ground attack and support, ie....P-47 Thunderbolt, A-20 Havoc, A-26 Invader, etc...

They all were better performers than the Hs-129 anyhow. I really like the Hs-129 and think that with better engines it could have been the best ground attack aircaft of the war, but without those engines it was underperforming armoured flying vehical. Nothing else. Nothing special basically.

Besides the Hs 129 was only good if it was protected by fighters and the fighters were too busy shooting down bombers.

USAAF was the best airforce by the end of war and overall do to its position at the end of the war.