Best WWII Air-Force

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by rpiereck

Brazilian Air Force... Senta a Púa!!

You are kidding right?

[The Basket]

I am always amazed at what Finland achieved with what little airpower she had.

If you can make the Brewster Buffalo into a successful fighter then top marks to them.

USAAF wins easy.

B-29s armed with atomic weapons and escorted with P-51s.
I call that best air force in my book.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Multi-engine tail draggers - their configuration was out of date!

What ?!

The B-29 was light years a head of both aircraft, one of them being nothing more than a prototype

Thats incorrect, the He-277 wasn't just a prototype, it was finished well before wars end, the Fighter-defence program made sure both the He-177 & -277 didn't see much action though and is the pure reason for the low service record - trained pilots and fuel was missing. And in the few mission carried out escorts were missing.

The B-29 wasn't ahead any way other than having a larger payload.

and even with the B-29s teething problems it was still a way more capable aircraft than the 177

Way more capable ? The He-177 & -277 were both structurally more sound and could go just as fast & their engine teething problems were solved as-well. And the He-277 had a much higher ceiling, a full 15km, thats just 100m short of the Ta-152H-1's ceiling.

I'd sure like to see the Allies try to catch the He-277 going 500 + km/h at 15km ! - an impossible task for them. The B-29 on the other hand could easily be intercepted by German fighters.

and it carried a bigger bomb load than both 177 and 277.

Yes you're actually right about the bomb-load, I got my reference wrong, the B-29 could carry a massive max bomb-load, 20,000 + kg's worth of bombs - the He-277 could carry roughly 20,000 kg's worth of bombs. The He-177 with its ~12,000kg max bomb-load could still carry more than the Lancaster, B-24 & B-17 though, plus it was much faster, which is impressive.

Interestingly the Germans had the Ju-390 that beats all three with a max bomb load of over 26,000 kg !! Range is much longer than all of the above as-well, an incredibly long 6,039 miles ! And despite the huge bombload speed is an impressive 505 km/h and the ceiling 6km with full bomb load. This baby even reached the coast of the US during WW2.. (This could only be done with a very light bombload though)

Or what about the Me-264, with a speed of 560 km/h, a max bomb-load of 23,000 + kg, a range of 6,250 miles, and a service ceiling of 8km with full bomb-load. A very impressive aircraft, although cancelled with the initiation of the Fighter-defence program.

Another plus of the German bombers is they carried a better defensive armament consisting of 20mm cannons.

______________________________


Adler,

I didn't say the LW was the best by 1944-1945, I infact said it wasn't because of the lack of trained pilots & fuel, despite its clear advantage in aircraft design & equipment.

The RAF is a strong contender for the best airforce of 1944 to 1945.

As to the special purpose a/c - I'm sure the Allies would've liked to have the Me-323 very much, cause they could effectively escort it with their huge number of available fighters - nevermind the low speed, its a high load transport plane which can carry loads no other a/c of the era can.

The Allies didn't possess as good a tankbuster as the Hs-129, it was better armed, armored and a more stabile gun platform than any Allied ground attack aircraft. The problem with its engines were solved pretty early btw.

And to your other comment about the Hs-129's combat effectiveness, well any of the dedicated ground-attack a/c of WW2 were vulnerable unless escorted by fighters - so thats a pretty moot point to make.
Their combat performance was great on the eastern front where they proved absolutely essential tools to the LW.

[Hunter368]

This looks like its going to be fun.

Where is my popcorn damn it!

[FLYBOYJ]

By WW2 a tail dragger multi engine aircraft was a dinosaur - a hazard to operate, from loading it with bombs to landing, it was an obsolete configuration. Right there both aircraft were off to a bad start.

Originally Posted by Soren

Thats incorrect, the He-277 wasn't just a prototype, it was finished well before wars end, the Fighter-defence program made sure both the He-177 & -277 didn't see much action though and is the pure reason for the low service record - trained pilots and fuel was missing. And in the few mission carried out escorts were missing.

The B-29 wasn't ahead any way other than having a larger payload.

Fire control, pressurization, internal avionics, configuration were all superior to both 177 and 277. Not to say the Germans didn't have better of each, the B-29 just put it all together into one weapons' system that worked and that's what made it superior to both 177 and 277. Besides several hundred B-29s were able to be produced a month with ease, to even say Germany had the capability to produce the 177 or 277 in the numbers the B-29 was being produced is nonsense.

Originally Posted by Soren

Way more capable ? The He-177 & -277 were both structurally more sound and could go just as fast & their engine teething problems were solved as-well. And the He-277 had a much higher ceiling, a full 15km, thats just 100m short of the Ta-152H-1's ceiling.

You're speculating both aircraft "would of" operated as advertised and based on the 177 I find that unlikely.

Originally Posted by Soren

I'd sure like to see the Allies try to catch the He-277 going 500 + km/h at 15km ! - an impossible task for them. The B-29 on the other hand could easily be intercepted by German fighters.

"Would of could of should of" - for that matter "IF" the 177 or 277 made it into significant numbers and deployed in a capacity where they were to be intercepted, then you might of had say a P-58 intercepting them, top speed in excess of 450 mph and specifically designed to take on aircraft like the He 177

Originally Posted by Soren

Yes you're actually right about the bomb-load, I got my reference wrong, the B-29 could carry a massive max bomb-load, 20,000 + kg's worth of bombs - the He-277 could carry roughly 20,000 kg's worth of bombs. The He-177 with its ~12,000kg max bomb-load could still carry more than the Lancaster, B-24 & B-17 though, plus it was much faster, which is impressive.

It was and never deployed in numbers to mean anything...

Originally Posted by Soren

Interestingly the Germans had the Ju-390 that beats all three with a max bomb load of over 26,000 kg !! Range is much longer than all of the above as-well, an incredibly long 6,039 miles ! And despite the huge bombload speed is an impressive 505 km/h and the ceiling 6km with full bomb load. This baby even reached the coast of the US during WW2.. (This could only be done with a very light bombload though)

Or what about the Me-264, with a speed of 560 km/h, a max bomb-load of 23,000 + kg, a range of 6,250 miles, and a service ceiling of 8km with full bomb-load. A very impressive aircraft, although cancelled with the initiation of the Fighter-defence program.

All true but don't forget while the B-29 was in gestation the B-29D was being developed which took care of all problems first encountered with the B-29. the B-29D became the B-50...

Crew: 8: Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer, radio/electronic countermeasures operator, 2 side gunners, top gunner, and tail gunner
Length: 99 ft 0 in (30.2 m)
Wingspan: 141 ft 3 in (43.1 m)
Height: 32 ft 8 in (10.0 m)
Wing area: 1736 ft² (161.3 m²)
Empty weight: 80,610 lb (36,560 kg)
Loaded weight: 121,850 lb (55,270 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 173,000 lb (78,470 kg)
Powerplant: 4× Pratt & Whitney R-4360 radial engines, 3,500 hp (2,600 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 395 mph (343 knots, 636 km/h) Cruise speed: 244 mph (212 knots, 393 km/h)
Combat radius: 2,100 nm (2,400 mi, 3,860 km)
Ferry range: 5,000 nm (5,760 mi, 9,270 km)
Service ceiling: 36,650 ft (11,170 m)
Rate of climb: 2,225 ft/min (11.3 m/s)
Wing loading: 70.19 lb/ft² (343 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.115 hp/lb (193 W/kg)
Armament
Guns:

12× .50 in (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine guns in remote controlled turrets
1× 20 mm (0.787 in) cannon in tail
Bombs:

20,000 lb (9,100 kg) internally
8,000 lb (3,600 kg) on external hardpoints

[Hunter368]

Yup I knew it. LOL

Damn I think I have ESP or something.

[Soren]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

By WW2 a tail dragger multi engine aircraft was a dinosaur - a hazard to operate, from loading it with bombs to landing, it was an obsolete configuration. Right there both aircraft were off to a bad start.

Well it doesn't seem there were any problems loading the He-177 or He-277, there being lots of space beneath it to load bombs.

Fire control, pressurization, internal avionics, configuration were all superior to both 177 and 277.

I doubt that very much FLYBOYJ. Avionics certainly weren't better, fire control was neither (They were exactly similar infact), prezzurization I can't speak of but I'd guess its the same, just as with the internal configuration.

Not to say the Germans didn't have better of each, the B-29 just put it all together into one weapons' system that worked and that's what made it superior to both 177 and 277.

I don't get what your saying here, as the He-277 was both faster, could go much higher and carry a similar bomb load compared to the B-29..

several hundred B-29s were able to be produced a month with ease, to even say Germany had the capability to produce the 177 or 277 in the numbers the B-29 was being produced is nonsense.

Agreed.

You're speculating both aircraft "would of" operated as advertised and based on the 177 I find that unlikely.

As advertised ? They actually did FLYBOYJ.

"Would of could of should of" - for that matter "IF" the 177 or 277 made it into significant numbers and deployed in a capacity where they were to be intercepted, then you might of had say a P-58 intercepting them, top speed in excess of 450 mph and specifically designed to take on aircraft like the He 177

The P-58 has a max speed of 436 mph and can't even reach 12km FLYBOYJ, making the He-277 immune to it.

It was and never deployed in numbers to mean anything...

Forget about the numbers produced, there's a reason for that, Germany was concentrating on fighters & fighterbombers by 1944 -45, and the multiple front war coupled with Allied bombing raids put such a strain on the German industry that producing these a/c in large numbers was an impossibility.

All true but don't forget while the B-29 was in gestation the B-29D was being developed which took care of all problems first encountered with the B-29. the B-29D became the B-50...

So ? The He-177, He-277, Ju-390 & Me-264 were all ready to go & the Germans were on the road to building jet bombers as-well.

[Soren]

Me-264


Ju-390


He-177


He-277

[syscom3]

Soren, if you bothered to read the thread on "the best bomber of WW2", you would have learned that every single bomber that dropped its payload at high altitudes, almost always missed its target.

So what if your bomber(s) flew at 40,000 ft. It wouldn't have hit anything just as the B17, B24 and B29 didn't.

Now about your statement about the German bombers had higher structural strength than the allied bombers is pure speculation bordering on the absurd.

We know how strong the Lanc, B17, B24 and B29 were, because THEY FLEW 100'S OF THOUSANDS OF SORTIES IN COMBAT AND THE GERMAN BOMBERS HAD ONLY A HANDFULL.

Don't make these ridiculous statements unless you have data to back yourself up on it.

So ? The He-177, He-277, Ju-390 & Me-264 were all ready to go & the Germans were on the road to building jet bombers as-well.

They were hardly ready to go as like all of Germany's aircraft projects , they were rushed into assembly before their bugs were ironed out.

And none of the ones close enough to be thought of as being ready for operations still didn't come close to the B29 capabilities that was proven in combat and not on paper.

And please stop mentioning "jet bombers". Its completely irrelevant as none of them were produced in the war and they fall under the "paper air force category".

[syscom3]

Heres a nice website about fight tests of the Me-264.

Seems like this "wonder bomber" had serious flight issues that were never corrected and about the only extensive missions it flew was on paper.

Messerschmitt Me 264 Luft '46 Entry

When you look at its payload figures, its worthless. All that time and material to build a bomber that could only carry a paltry payload. And to top it off, only one prototype was built and it was still working out some serious problems while the B29 was beginning to approach mass production.

I think we can scratch this clunker off of the German "superior" bomber list!

[Soren]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Soren, if you bothered to read the thread on "the best bomber of WW2", you would have learned that every single bomber that dropped its payload at high altitudes, almost always missed its target.

So what if your bomber(s) flew at 40,000 ft. It wouldn't have hit anything just as the B17, B24 and B29 didn't.

Now about your statement about the German bombers had higher structural strength than the allied bombers is pure speculation bordering on the absurd.

We know how strong the Lanc, B17, B24 and B29 were, because THEY FLEW 100'S OF THOUSANDS OF SORTIES IN COMBAT AND THE GERMAN BOMBERS HAD ONLY A HANDFULL.

Don't make these ridiculous statements unless you have data to back yourself up on it.

Ha ! And thats coming from you !


I can easily back it up, the He-177 was made to be able to dive bomb, hence its structural integrity had to be much higher than a conventional bomber.

They were hardly ready to go as like all of Germany's aircraft projects , they were rushed into assembly before their bugs were ironed out.

Pure BS, every new design has a high probability of having some bugs, the B-29 had its own to deal with.

The Me-210 wasn't a good a/c to begin with, but look at what happened with the introduction of the Me-410 - a completely excellent aircraft.

And none of the ones close enough to be thought of as being ready for operations still didn't come close to the B29 capabilities that was proven in combat and not on paper.

Thats completely and utterly untrue!

The He-277 was faster, could carry roughly the same bomb-load and had a much higher ceiling!

The Ju-390 & Me-264 could both carry a far larger payload coupled with a longer range as-well.

Heres a nice website about fight tests of the Me-264.

Seems like this "wonder bomber" had serious flight issues that were never corrected and about the only extensive missions it flew was on paper.

Messerschmitt Me 264 Luft '46 Entry

When you look at its payload figures, its worthless. All that time and material to build a bomber that could only carry a paltry payload. And to top it off, only one prototype was built and it was still working out some serious problems while the B29 was beginning to approach mass production.

I think we can scratch this clunker off of the German "superior" bomber list!

For christs sake read what is written Syscom3 ! The 3,000 kg payload figure isn't the max bomb-load figure ! The max bomb load figure is above 23,000 kg !!

The 3,000 - 5,000 kg bomb-loads are for long range missions.

[Glider]

Can I just ask one question. If the He177 had such good structural integrity and was so robust, why did it catch fire so easily. If produced in numbers and deployed there is every chance that it would have been a latter day Betty. Long range, heavy defensive weapons and lit like a torch every time.

Also about intercepting the He277, can I suggest the much maligned Meteor. Easily fast enough, decent range and very well armed, as well as being in production and service.

[The Basket]

Ernst Heinkel hated the He-177...blaming Udet for the stupid dive bombing requirements.

The Fw200 Condor was far better. Because it was available and did something. But not built in the numbers required and far too easy to fall apart. But it was there and earned its medals.

Did the aircrews love to fly the He-177? Nope. Says it all.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Soren

Well it doesn't seem there were any problems loading the He-177 or He-277, there being lots of space beneath it to load bombs.

Sure there is, but your loading bombs on and aircraft resting at an angle, it's a lot easier if the aircraft has a nose landing gear, but that's only one minor issue. Bottom line a tail dragger multi-engine bomber was just an operation accident waiting to happen, and the proof of this is that there were no large multi engine tail draggers built in the postwar years.

Originally Posted by Soren

I doubt that very much FLYBOYJ. Avionics certainly weren't better, fire control was neither (They were exactly similar infact), prezzurization I can't speak of but I'd guess its the same, just as with the internal configuration.

I don't get what your saying here, as the He-277 was both faster, could go much higher and carry a similar bomb load compared to the B-29..

And how many were built and what was its impact? I know - "fighter defence." Would of could of should of...We're talking about a whole Airforce here. What good is the weapon when you cant use it to its capacity and both the 177 and 277 were prime examples of this...

Originally Posted by Soren

The P-58 has a max speed of 436 mph and can't even reach 12km FLYBOYJ, making the He-277 immune to it.

The 277, if it was built in numbers and if it was put in a position where it "would of" been intercepted would not have been bombing with any accuracy or effectiveness at it higher operating altitudes, as evident in the B-29.

Originally Posted by Soren

Forget about the numbers produced, there's a reason for that, Germany was concentrating on fighters & fighterbombers by 1944 -45, and the multiple front war coupled with Allied bombing raids put such a strain on the German industry that producing these a/c in large numbers was an impossibility.

And that's history, something that's not being changed...

Originally Posted by Soren

So ? The He-177, He-277, Ju-390 & Me-264 were all ready to go & the Germans were on the road to building jet bombers as-well.

So was the B-50, and although the allies were lacking jet bombers they still defeated Germany with their "marginal Air force." Quantity vs. Quality?

[FLYBOYJ]

Here's a comparison between the He 277 and the B-29. Not much difference.

Specifications (He 277B-5)
General characteristics
Crew: 7
Length: 22.14 m (72 ft 8 in)
Wingspan: 31.43 m (103 ft 1¾ in)
Height: 6.66 m (21 ft 10½ in)
Wing area: 100.00 m² (1,076.39 ft²)
Empty weight: 21,800 kg (48,060 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 44,500 kg (98,105 lb)
Powerplant: 4× Daimler-Benz DB 603A 12-cylinder inverted-vee engine, 1,305 kW (1,750 hp) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 570 km/h at 5,700 m (354 mph at 18,700 ft)
Cruise speed: 460 km/h (286 mph)
Range: 6,000 km (3,728 miles)
Service ceiling: 15,000 m (49,210 ft)
Armament
8 × 7.92 mm MG 81 machine guns in forward and rear fuselage barbettes
3 × 13 mm MG 131 machine gun in two dorsal turrets
1 × 15 mm or 20 mm MG 151 cannon in nose
up to 3,000 kg (6,612 lb) of disposable stores

B-29 General characteristics
Crew: 11: (A/C)pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer, bombardier, navigator, radio operator, radar observer, blister gunners (two), CFC upper gunner, and tail gunner
Length: 99 ft 0 in (30.2 m)
Wingspan: 141 ft 3 in (43.1 m)
Height: 27 ft 9 in (8.5 m)
Wing area: 1,736 ft² (161.3 m²)
Empty weight: 74,500 lb (33,800 kg)
Loaded weight: 120,000 lb (54,000 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 133,500 lb (60,560 kg)
Powerplant: 4× Wright R-3350-23 turbosupercharged radial engines, 2,200 hp (1,640 kW) each
Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0241
Drag area: 41.16 ft² (3.82 m²)
Aspect ratio: 11.50
Performance
Maximum speed: 357 mph (310 knots, 574 km/h)
Cruise speed: 220 mph (190 knots, 350 km/h)
Stall speed: 105 mph (91 knots, 170 km/h)
Combat radius: 3,250 mi (2,820 nm, 5,230 km)
Ferry range: 5,600 mi (4,900 nm, 9,000 km)
Service ce