Best WWII Air-Force

[Soren]

Bill,

I have never disdained the Americans at all and so I'm going to have to ask where you've got that from ?? Its way too easy to just off-handedly condemn someone as biased, you're going to have to present some evidence.

As to why the He-177 & He-277 didn't have as successfull a career as the B-17, Lancaster, B-29 etc etc, you can completely thank the huge numerical superiority enjoyed by the Allied airforces for that - this made sure that there wasn't enough fuel, trained crew or at all escorts for the German bombers to operate as intended.

In the air the Allies simply dwarfed the LW in numbers.

FLYBOYJ,

We are pretty much in full agreement.

Syscom3,

Check your sources please, the He-177 & He-277's defensive armament is almost completely remote-controlled, the MG-81 pointing through a small circular opening in the cockpit glazing being manually aimed.

PS: Many German as-well as Italian bombers featured remote-controlled defensive armament far earlier than this.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Soren

Syscom3,

Check your sources please, the He-177 & He-277's defensive armament is almost completely remote-controlled, the MG-81 pointing through a small circular opening in the cockpit glazing being manually aimed.

PS: Many German as-well as Italian bombers featured remote-controlled defensive armament far earlier than this.

I did check my sources, and not one of them mentioned a Computerized Fire Control (CFC) system like that used on the B29.

YOU provide us with a source to prove your assertion.

[Soren]

I did check my sources, and not one of them mentioned a Computerized Fire Control (CFC) system like that used on the B29.

No Syscom3 and thats cause you haven't got a single source besides Wikipedia, read "Heinkel 177,277,274." by Manfred Griehl & Joachim Dressel, ISBN: 1853103640. I just recently borrowed this book, its excellent and describes the enormous potential of these aircraft.

The He-177 & He-277 both featured remote controlled defensive armament, and so did many other German designs (Ex. Condor) as-well as some Italian designs - the Piaggio P-108B being one. Just like the B-29 these all used a electric-hydraulic system to control their defensive armament.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Soren

I just recently borrowed this book, its excellent and describes the enormous potential of these aircraft.

The key word

[Soren]

Hadn't it been for the huge number of Allied fighters, the lack of fuel & trained crew, and the fact that no escort was available then you can be absolutely sure that potential would've been excellently demonstrated.

[Soren]

Oh forgot to explain why I think the RAF is a strong contender to topic title at the end of the war.

The RAF possessed better defensive fighters & ground attack a/c, and it featured Jets which could be used. The USAAF had good escorts, carrier fighters & bombers. Its close..

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Soren

Hadn't it been for the huge number of Allied fighters, the lack of fuel & trained crew, and the fact that no escort was available then you can be absolutely sure that potential would've been excellently demonstrated.

Thats the thing Soren. You can have all the potential you want for ever and ever and ever, if you cant turn that potential into superiority it does not matter. Potential is just that, it does not mean you are going to be superior. They never got past potential.

I dont care that there no fuel, I dont care that there were no trained pilots or inferiour numbers.

You have to have fuel to be the best, you have to have trained pilots to be the best. You have to have numbers to be the best.

[syscom3]

Soren, if you desire to include "potential" into your rankings, then you must also include the RAF's and USAAF's potential as well.

Did you know that when the war ended in August, over 1000 B32's were cancelled. And its "potential" as the bomber was already in small scale production and the factories were tooled up and ready to go.

Plus with the cancellation of the B17's, B25's, B26's and A20's, those plants were available to build whatever aircraft the AAF or USN wanted. And that includes more B29's or 'potentially", B50's and B36's.

So what ever potential you want to add for the LW, the same is applied to the RAF and AAF.

And one little thing you seem to forget...... only the AAF had the resources to build vast fleets of bombers AND fighters AND transports AND and have the crews to fly them.

Now regarding the CFC for the -277..... just in case you dont know what it is..... it was a computerized system that took optical and mechanical aiming data from specialized sighting mechanizisms located at five different locations in the plane and it allowed a single gunner the capability of controlling his gun or all of the guns, while controlling the turrets for az/el and target range.

The -277 did not have that feature, nor have enough gunners to effectively defend the plane.

Any way you look at it, the -277 was inferior to the B29. What counts is not whats on paper or prototypes, but what actually flies and goes on missions.

[FLYBOYJ]

Potential didn't win WW2.....

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

Oh forgot to explain why I think the RAF is a strong contender to topic title at the end of the war.

The RAF possessed better defensive fighters & ground attack a/c, and it featured Jets which could be used. The USAAF had good escorts, carrier fighters & bombers. Its close..

This is a decent example of what I perceive as bias on your part re; bias against things American. You could have said the same things about the LW at the end of the war - but having those features were useless against the power brought against them

The Americans had the BEST Escorts, at least three of the top Ground Attack Fighters - all equivalent to Tempest (the F4U, the P-47 and the P-38 ) in far greater numbers, and a little better than 'good' bombers. The B-29 was the BEST bomber. Had the BEST transport aircraft in the C-47s and C-54s, perhaps the BEST training aircraft in the AT-6 which was used in great numbers by all the Allies except Russia, had the BEST Medium Bombers in the A-26, B-26, B-25.

It supplied USSR Attack aircraft (P-39s and P63s) RAAF and RNZAF with P-47s and B-25s, RAAF built P-51s under license, RAF with C-47s, B-24s, PBYs, F4fs and F6Fs, etc, etc.

The Mosquito was perhaps the BEST multi role a/c and could have challenged title of Best medium bomber but that doesn't assign any weight to the BEST Air Power.

As to BEST defensive a/c? The P-80 was an excellent design, arrived in ETO in Italy in January 1945 but simply wasn't needed in ETO or Pacific but better than the Meteor and on par with the Me262 performance wise... and had a much higher ceiling. Had anyone had a bomber equivalent to B-29 it could have been re-armed with 4 20mm easily, but it was an escort or air superiority fighter. The F7F was deployed to PTO before WWII ended and would have been superb defensively against even the B-29.

But the BEST defensive aircraft were Luftwaffe, not RAF, in 1944-1945. As to the requirement for BEST defensive Fighters? How much tonnage did the LW or Japanese Air Forces drop on US Targets - so the argument about Best Defensive Fighter is not even relevant - the US Defensive capabilities were 'more than adequate' - in contrast with the best defensive aircraft (Luftwaffe) which were not 'good enough'

America had the MOST power, and could project it EVERYWHERE with relative impunity - land or sea based from late 1943 through today.

Soren - respectfully, it was not 'close' in 1944-1945. It (American Aipower) shouldered the Strategic load in both the ETO and the PTO, it broke the back of Luftwaffe and JNAF and JAF in both theatres, it destroyed the Japanese Fleet, and bombed German and Japanese industry into oblivion - without the Atomic Bomb.

No other Air Power can make those claims - not the RAF and not the RAF, RCAF, RNZAF and RAAF combined can make those claims.

If you were objective about 'America' this is one argument even you could support.

Regards,

Bill

[trackend]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Soren - respectfully, it was not 'close' in 1944-1945. It (American Aipower) shouldered the Strategic load in both the ETO and the PTO, it broke the back of Luftwaffe and JNAF and JAF in both theatres, it destroyed the Japanese Fleet, and bombed German and Japanese industry into oblivion - without the Atomic Bomb.


Regards,

Bill

I agree Bill that the USAAF was the best but I'm not totally convinced that in the ETO the Strategic load was shouldered by the USAAF eg: may 1944 38,000 tonnes dropped on Germany 29,000 on other targets by Bomber command as a prelude to the D day invasion. in the ETO I believe it was a joint effort,

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Soren

Hadn't it been for the huge number of Allied fighters, the lack of fuel & trained crew, and the fact that no escort was available then you can be absolutely sure that potential would've been excellently demonstrated.

The fact remains that Germany didn't have the escort, fuel, crews, production capacity etc and without those things, you cannot be the best airforce in WW2.

If you want to start a thread on the best potential airforce, then that is a different debate.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Glider

The fact remains that Germany didn't have the escort, fuel, crews, production capacity etc and without those things, you cannot be the best airforce in WW2.

If you want to start a thread on the best potential airforce, then that is a different debate.

According to Soren, the RAF and AAF get points deducted for unfair fighting in a war.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by trackend

I agree Bill that the USAAF was the best but I'm not totally convinced that in the ETO the Strategic load was shouldered by the USAAF eg: may 1944 38,000 tonnes dropped on Germany 29,000 on other targets by Bomber command as a prelude to the D day invasion. in the ETO I believe it was a joint effort,

Trackend - love your avatar.

My perspective is that defeating Germany was a three way effort - take nothing away from RAF and Commonwealth or USSR.

Having said that, the RAF wasn't doing much on Aircraft and Oil or Ball Bearings until very late - in the context of precision bombing - and the RAF had developed what might have been the best precison bomb sight plus the radar bombing equipment and techniques.

Hence my comment on the Strategic load assumed by 8th, 12th and 15th AF which, combined, was the pretty close to the equivalent of the RAF in its entirety.

[Marcel]

The Fokker GI was potentionally one of the best twin engined fighters, the G2 was "more potentionally" an even better aircraft, so I'll vote for the LVA being the best

Okay, I admit, I'm biased

But seriously, I still think it's unfair to say that the USAAF was the best only because of the latter part of the war. IMHO the USAAF was really not so good when they got into the war in 1942. Okay, they catched up really fast and from 1944 but if being the best in only a part of the war does qualify for being the best of the total war, then the LW could easily be called the best as well, as they were the best in the first 3 years. So it's not so easy to say which one was best, probably none at al, the war was won by a joined effort, not one single country/army/airforce!