Best WWII Air-Force

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by The Basket

Adler

WW2 was about production. About 33,000 Bf 109s were made and god knows how many were lost due to landing accidents. How many Yaks or Las were built? P-51s, P-47s or Spitfires?

Then the number of Gustavs becones small.

They had to bodge the Fw 200 and didn't have the Ural bomber when they needed it. They were also short on transports.

They couldn't outproduce the enemies they faced. And therefore lost. And put their faith in superweapons that didn't do the biz.

Agreed but to say they did not have eneogh aircraft or the ability to produce aircraft is not true.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think just about everyone (except those that are confused and think the Luftwaffe was the best airforce) can agree that the Luftwaffes major mistake was not having a strategic bomber force in the early parts of the war.

Late in the war it was too late for the Luftwaffe to start a program. They needed fighters and by that point it was too late.

[ccheese]

I think Germany dabbled in too much experimentation. How about the
great big glider they finally put six engines on ? The Komet was another.
Had this "dabbling" gone into a good four engine bomber, the outcome may
have been different. They used the Condor for anti-shipping.... a waste.

Of course, hindsight being 20/20, we could debate this for years.

Charles

[ToughOmbre]

Originally Posted by ccheese

I think Germany dabbled in too much experimentation. How about the
great big glider they finally put six engines on ? The Komet was another.
Had this "dabbling" gone into a good four engine bomber, the outcome may
have been different. They used the Condor for anti-shipping.... a waste.

Very true...

Lot's of wasted resources on "Wonder Weapons", many of which never got off the drawing boards, or could be classified as "too little, too late". Also, many bad decisions by Hitler, which were good decisions from our point of view.

TO

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Udet

It is clear, the best was the USAAF, but with the necessary remarks for sure.

There is no doubt the arrival of the USAAF in Europe was the factor that made the grass look greener for the allied cause.


Now, the Mustang...sure, a fine aircraft manned by very well trained pilots; overhyped to some extent for sure, since it was not necessarily the ultimate marvel to fly the unfriendly skies.

Nobody will deny for sure that this particular fighter made an important contribution, perhaps essential, to get the job done. What type of job? Simple: cut bomber losses. "Seeking and destroying" the Luftwaffe wherever it could be found came later. There lies the importance of the P-51.

I agree your comments here but would add some of my own

I think "The order" was issued by Doolittle on January 11,1944 which co-incided with the Pioneer Mustang becoming officially operational in long range escort role - so actually the strategy coincided approximately with the introduction of the P-51B in ETO. Clearly the Capability to Seek and Destroy was somewhat limited - but setting the tone that both escort AND seeking out the Luftwaffe had equal priority

Now, was it that technically and technologically superior? I do not think so.

This has been debated ad nausem. It was a superb Fighter with advanced capabilities in air combat over Germay. Better in some cases, equivalent in others and inferior in a few - but possesing those qualities East of Berlin or West of Hannover - wherever it encountered German fighters.

Was it technically superior at bomber escort altitudes - pilot skill equivalent - over Me109G's and Fw 190 A's? Yes.

At low and medium altitudes? in some ways yes others no. The Fw190 would always outroll the 51 and turn with it, and the 109 would out turn it at medium to low speed and certainly climb as well or better in this regime

What is really important is the equivalency to slight superiority of the P-51 in 1944, combined with increasing populations of good to excellent fighter pilots flying them, combined with restrictive Command policies of Luftwaffe - enabling relatively small numbers to turn the control of air over Germany to US

To emphasize a point - it was not the best dogfighter in the world, not even in the ETO, not even in the US arsenal (i.e F4U, F8F)

While German losses could have a more profound impact in the ranks of the Luftwaffe, referring to the ability to replace lost/crippled pilots with the same number of properly trained ones, the losses the USAAF had to swallow were not less terrible in their impact, at all.

This is very true in fall of 1943 and winter 1943/1944. In all the 8th AF losses were roughly equivalent to US losses in Battle of Bulge - majority of which occurred before D-Day. The 8th AF losses during WWII were close to USMC to put the fury of that fight in perspective. However, the greatest bomber (and bomber crew) losses occurred in that period of 8/43 to 5/44.

The greatest fighter losses (majority of POW/KIA/MIA) occurred after D-Day due primarily to German flak, not fighters.

The war ended pretty much when it had to end for the USAAF; they could not go on bearing such losses indifinitely.

Very debateable for spring 1945. Arguable for scenario in which the Mustang failed and losses experienced through May, 1944 continued apace with no let up - that would have posed serious political consequences and may have forced USAAF to switch to night bombing.

The failure to wrest control of German air space coupled with determination to take losses would have serious consequences. But remember the US only mobiled some 14 million of its 140 Million plus population and cut off production of most equipment in late 1944 - it had huge reserves left given political will

If the Mustang had made the superb out-of-this-world craft depicted here and there, then 0% of the Bf 109 G-6/R6 bomber destroyers it confronted would have made it back to base.

You are straying a wee bit into the twilight zone here. That would suppose that the Mustang was always in sufficient strength in the right place to a.) blunt the attack, b.) have the numbers to keep track of surviving 109s in good weather or bad, c.) chase all of them until the caughts up, etc. There were NEVER enough Mustangs to fit that scenario

The converse comment would be if the 109D was such a great fighter it would have always prevailed, or Me 262, etc.??

Overall, ~70% of those G-6/R6s made it back to base after engaging the enemy, a fact the includes the fierce battles against the escorts of the bombers they tried to hunt down.

Sure that ~30% losses is a critical factor, and also means losing the war in the air.

Also my guncamera collection which was acquired in the under-world of the black markets of Moscow has taught me important lessons regarding the alleged "superb-unmatched" technical capabilities of the P-51.

Again a little over the top - the implication is that all the gun camera flim showing me 262s out of the air should teach you important lessons regarding the technical qualities of the Me262?? or Fw190. The world's finest, or great, or simply excellent sword is only as good as the wielder.

Featuring some 85 shots of Mustangs getting barbecued -pilot included- by the guns and cannons of Bf 109s and Fw 190s -and possibly a Me 262- i am more than convinced that putting aside bouncing the enemy (neither knew nor saw what killed him), there were so many Mustang pilots that tried to get the best out of their planes and found themselves uncapable to shake off the German boy pursuing them.

Ditto LW pilots in far greater numbers than the Mustang, with the uncountable examples of Fw190's (including D's) and 109s being out turned, or out climbed, deflection attained.. and aircraft blowing up - and the point is? - in both cases soembody was out flown and paid a terrible price

The vast majority of those P-51s getting shot down are P-51 D´s, you know German pilots tried to get as close as possible to ensure a kill, an indication most of the material came from German pilots flying during late 1944 and 1945.
The vast majority of the film examples perhaps, but the D's arrived in late May and June 1944 not late 1944. For my father's group, the ratio of 51D to 51B in September was probably 5:1, in December probably 10:1.

The 355th FG isn't particularly unique but it lost exactly 9 Mustangs and pilots to 'Unknown" or "confirmed air to air" or "collided with debris from destroyed German fighter" after June 7, 1944 (when it lost three to JG11). Prior to June 8 it lost 30. The same statistics for flak is 65 after June 7, 23 prior.

Actually 85 P-51s might represent the sum of nearly ALL the USAAF MUstangs shot down in Dec 1944 -VE Day period. It won't be much more than that, possibly double but I would have to check

You could also.

Kent Miller did a very good job of compiling awards and losses for 8th Fighter Command during WWII. There are errors in it but given the magnitude of the effort it is well done. I used that as a basis to analyze all the Fighter Groups with respect to scores, losses/types of losses to rank each group in 'air to air' ratios, efficiency in context of number of German a/c destroyed per mission, etc. When I did my own analysis of his loss records, any place he recorded an 'unknown' where German fighters were present I chose to record as 'air to air combat loss' rather than skew the losses too low against the LW.

You may not be suprised but the 56th FG (in P-47s) had the best air to air ratio closely followed by 357th FG and 354th FG (in P-51s) at nearly 12:1. The worst is about 2:1

The awards are based on USAF 85 and the losses based on MACR's. Overclaiming and awards are always a problem (for all air forces) but this is best historical approach..

As shown on Kurfurst´s excellent webpages, speed was marginally affected due to fitting the 109s with the MG 151/20 cannons under the wings, with a more considerable -negative- impact regarding manouverability of the craft.

Yes, and many Mustangs were handicapped with nearly full fuselage tank or wing cells, depending on the timing of combat.. so you fight or flee, depending on your circumstances, right??? 109's so equipped are at a disadvantage in an even fight - true. Is this posed as an excuse, or explanation of callous approach by LW high command regarding the lives of their fighter pilots against a 'now superior' fighter?

I have been researching many of the Gruppe's in the March-May 1944 timeframe to try to get a feel for the numbers/proportions of 109s encumbered this way.

How would you know, for example, which of I./JG3's 109G-5 or -6's were equipped with the underwing gun pods in April 1994 from the following tables? Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, I./JG3

I gotta admit, Udet, even when I was young and good looking, hordes of waitresses never fought over me.. I had to seek them out one at a time.

[Udet]

Doctor Gon Dog (it´s easier to spell in this form):

I do not deny the Mustang was a superb fighter with advanced combat capabilities for the scenario it would be operating over...but so were those ships fielded by the Germans: G-5,-6,-14/AS, G-10, K-4, the Antons, the Doras and of course the rare Ta 152 H-1.

Also agree with your comments that it was ONLY skill of the pilot in the cockpit which would come to make the difference.

Where i will have to disagree with you is when you say "...enabling relatively small numbers to turn the control of the air over Germany to the US".

When you say "small numbers" you should of course be referring to the long range escorts...that their numbers were low enough to find themselves outnumbered.

This is not the first time i come across this notion; that the P-51´s over Germany were significantly outnumbered, yet managed to defeat whatever enemy fighter stream they confronted in the air...

If so, such high losses of German fighters inflicted by a relatively small number of P-51 pilots should reflect on the lists of top scorers of the 8th USAAF to say the least...i mean, i am doing this by memory but if i recall correctly the list has Gabby as the top scorer with some 28 kills (but Gabby flew the venerable Jug as i also seem to recall); following behind should come the Noble Robert Johnson -which also flew a Jug and not a Mustang)...so apart from these 2 gentlemen, i think there are only 5 or 6 more USAAF aces with more than 20 kills -and i ought to check this for they are not all P-51 pilots as well-, most of them from the 56, 352 and 359 FGs.

And i am aware of the combat program for fighter pilots in the USAAF...fly during a specific time, if you survive then clear your stuff and go back home.

So -overclaiming acknowledged- less than 30 kills as the standard (only 6 or 7 pilots with 20-28 kills), and also not too many Mustang pilots with 10-19 kills, seems quite low if i position myself under the assertion a relatively small number of pilots which were most frequently -or always?- outnumbered by enemy fighters are responsible for turning the control of air space over Germany to the U.S., something the implies the defeat of the enemy tagjagdwaffe.

This is only one approach to counter this theory.

About the G-6/R6´s, well there i too agree with you; there is no way we can know an accurate number of the 109s which were fitted to operate with the extra-cannon equipment under the wings...someone i met in Europe told me it was his estimate at least 50% of 109s used during late 1943-mid 1944 were fitted with the underwing gondlas, but it was just that, an estimate.

What we do however know is the fact that particular version saw widespread use in combat in several units, like JG 1 and JG 11 since late 1943, when they were covering Holland and northern Germany -i know late 1943 does not have Mustangs in the long range mode-, but also through most of 1944 in those 2 units and many others as well that were committed to Reichsverteidigung. Also my Luftwaffe videos and films show an important number of these bomber-destroyer configuration of the 109 in Luftwaffe airfields.

So you are suggesting that those G-6/R6´s who managed to return to their base -which were the significant majority of them- after being engaged by the escorts could only attain it for the main reason there were not enough P-51´s to go after them?

No credit to the capabilities of the 109 although somewhat disrupted by such fitting of equipment? No credit to 109 G-6/R6 pilots who proved capable to evade any pursuing P-51s?

If so many G-6/R6´s managed to return to base after engaging Jugs and Mustangs, what could one think of a Bf 109 bearing only its classical weapons? Surely more capable.

Houston, we have a problem...and the problem i see is the allies have managed to depict the Germans finished the war almost if not identical to the Japanese style...more hogwash to remove from my list. You know virtually "all German fighter missions wiped out to the very last...with only a fistful of wounded pilots returning to base on foot because they too were shot down".

Crap. As i said, i have a close idea of the magnitude of German losses during summer 1944 until the end in 1945. High. Simple. But not like the allies have said, not with regard to German losses, not with regard to the losses of their own.

The only equal thing was total and unconditional surrender; the rest deserves very special analysis.



Now the guncamera thing...i agree with you -and was also aware of it- that in so many times it was either a German guy or USA guy who got outflown and paid accordingly...i possibly used the wrong words, not that you can learn "tech specifications" of craft from watching guncamera footage, right...but my point is that you do not get to see that much footage shown P-51´s blowing in huge fire balls.

Speaking for myself is that i tell you that before acquiring my collection i had seen possibly ONE -repeat, one- film of a P-51 getting hit and it was not even conclusive for the film shot ended before showing if the pounding continued finishing with a possible kill.

What the videos did show me is that many many times P-51 pilots attempted evading procedures to no avail: the narrowest turning possible with the camera of the 109 or 190 remaining inside scoring hits, dives, climbing...huge fire balls from silly pilots with the drop tanks still under the wings...if a well trained pilot from the USAAF could not escape from the pursuing German then it also tells me the German was a very competitive pilot and that his plane allows for displaying the necessary skills to destroy your enemy.

I have ~85 shots of sauteed P-51s, plus dozens more showing similar fates of Jugs, Spitfires, Typhoons/Tempests and even some P-38s. What of the many other USAAF fighters that got shot down by the Luftwaffe? Were all those the cause of badly trained pilots manning inadequate planes??

Who is Ken Miller? Is his work published?


SoDStitch:

I simply like the truth. Books such as the one i did describe focused on Bodenplatte used to pissed me off big time a very few of years ago, when i was still a teenager. Now i find them amusing.

The allies have lied big time about so many issues of the war; every aspect of the war has been targeted in a lesser or higher degree with their lies: weapons, battlefield records, politics.

In fact, i take most of what comes from the allied side with a grain of salt.

Perhaps you have seen Erich around here; well he himself shared his experiences with some historians or researchers from some USAAF bomber group when he was denied access to information or files. Why would that be? Because they want to hide the successes of such group?

Well...so you live in Tucson? I have not been at Sullivan´s for breakfast. Only for dinner, but hey, dinner is something like more special don´t you think? I rarely go out for breakfast wherever is it that i might be living in.

Dinner is really something; the day is over, and you want to forget about the things of the day whatever they are: bad day at work, your wife or girlfriends conspiracies, the IRS...

If you have not yet had dinner there you are missing something. I am of the opinion that the sophisticated ambience of a place gets enhanced during the night. Something that works marvelously in that restaurant. Also the bar has something special; i barely drink, but being at Sullivan´s bar before entering the dining room makes me want to have a cold beer or some good scotch...and the waitresses, yeah!

The last time i went there, i stayed there for about a week and a half; i stayed with a friend who lives in La Paloma. During such time we went there 4 times for dinner -two of those were in a row-; i have fun when i remember the face of the manager upon seeing me entering his dining room.

There was this appetizer which is unforgettable: Seared Ahi Tuna...small cuts of Albacore, seared in the outside, and that real creamy buttery flavor in the inside...you should really try it. The oysters...well, the USA has really got one of the greatest logistic systems on earth...a city in the middle of the Sonora Desert, not far from the border with Mexico and you can have some of the freshest and best oysters you can think of...as if you were in some fishermen village by the sea side...on a different setting -and surrounded by fine women in black-.

I loved the black outfit all the waitresses; whenever is it that i come back, i might give you a call.

[drgondog]

[quote=Udet;270966]Doctor Gon Dog (it´s easier to spell in this form):

Udet - lol - good to chat. I got that obscure nickname from my Cadre Instructor at Benning more than 40 years ago.

I do not deny the Mustang was a superb fighter with advanced combat capabilities for the scenario it would be operating over...but so were those ships fielded by the Germans: G-5,-6,-14/AS, G-10, K-4, the Antons, the Doras and of course the rare Ta 152 H-1.

Complete Agreement - Ditto Spits and Typhoons and Yak -3, Laag 7's etc

Also agree with your comments that it was ONLY skill of the pilot in the cockpit which would come to make the difference.

I failed to mention position and suprise - LOL - but in general true.

Where i will have to disagree with you is when you say "...enabling relatively small numbers to turn the control of the air over Germany to the US".

When you say "small numbers" you should of course be referring to the long range escorts...that their numbers were low enough to find themselves outnumbered.

This is not the first time i come across this notion; that the P-51´s over Germany were significantly outnumbered, yet managed to defeat whatever enemy fighter stream they confronted in the air...

I'm going to address the differences between P-47 aces and P-51 in another reply - this one has too many words.

Here is the thesis. The number of Mustang Groups in the critical January 1944 through mid May 1945 were one(354FG/9AF in January, three (357/8AF in mid Feb, 4th/8AF in late Feb, four (355/8AF), six (352/8AF and 363/9AF) in mid April, seven (339 in early May. The 354, 357, 363 and 339 had zero combat experience when they started ops.

This was the entire Force of Mustangs avilable to escort 35-40 Bomb Groups over Targets from Bremen to Stuttgart and all targets Eastward from January 11 until May 12 - the last day the LW inflicted a 10% loss on any of the 8th AF Bomb Divisions.

These Fighter Groups were all that existed to meet and attack LW formations large and small plus three Lightning groups. The P-38s were not insignificant as bomber escorts, just so easy to spot that they were easily avoided.

So as I expressed to Soren, calculate the available number of Fighters to escort 10+ Bomb Groups per Division, usually three totally different Target areas, stretched out over 30-40 miles, with skilled LW controllers plus high altitude recon fighters stalking to bomber stream looking for gaps?

In January you have usually 48 taking off from each group (1 Mustang/2 Lightning) with perhaps 30-35 Effective due to mechanical problems before reaching the coast.. in January... 2 Mustang/2 Lightning in February.. 4 Mustang/ 3 Lightning in March, 4 1/2 P-51/3 Lightning in April. April would have more 'effectives' as both the reliablity and numbers on the base would enable and average of about 42-48 per Group.

So, extend and note the coverage during Penetration deep, at the Target, and Withdrawal to Mannheim, Munster areas leaves you with a max of two Mustang/Lightning Groups and eighty to 90 P-51s, or combined 80-90 P-38s and P-51s to cover 10 bomb groups of one Bomb Division for their collection of targets. Look to the effective tactics of concentrating one or two large formations of LuftFlotte Reich on the weakest spot possible.

With an average Strength of 400-600 s/e fighters (effective), the Jagdkorps had approximately 2 x available to position as it pleased against the deep escorts/bombers.

Udet - I respect your knowledge and your research. Look to your own sources to note attack strategies and concentrations of LuftReich from January Through May - and note that while LuftFlotte 3 was available occasionally in small numbers to help out - it was usually occupied with RAF, 8th AF and 9th AF P-47s

Note also that t/e fighters were huge contributors, including using the NJG's until Jan/Feb. From that point Me 110's and 410's existed only with heavy escort and usually suffered huge losses anyway - further rendering the LW TO&E ill suited to recover control of the air?


I have harped on this thesis long enough on this thread and will bow out. Do your own research on the numbers and briefly hold individual encounter reports in suspension while you decide. I'm OK with any decision you make, of course - it doesn't alter mine

About the G-6/R6´s, well there i too agree with you; there is no way we can know an accurate number of the 109s which were fitted to operate with the extra-cannon equipment under the wings...someone i met in Europe told me it was his estimate at least 50% of 109s used during late 1943-mid 1944 were fitted with the underwing gondlas, but it was just that, an estimate.

In that website I presented above it did specify the number of R4/R6 in the inventory. In the example I presented I./JG3 had relatively few in April 1944 - I have no clue re: accuracy

So you are suggesting that those G-6/R6´s who managed to return to their base -which were the significant majority of them- after being engaged by the escorts could only attain it for the main reason there were not enough P-51´s to go after them?

I was addressing your thesis that if the 51 was so good - none (109's)would survive.. which is clearly not possible unless there were so Many Mustangs that a.) the formations could survive the encounter with nearly equal performing fighters, b.) have enough to track each survivor out of the battle, c.) have some way to shadow and locate those that slipped into cloud cover or out/dove and out ran the attcking 51's.. Closest event to that scenario was JG301 against the 355th and 339th on 26 November, or the JG301 versus 357FG on 14 January 1945

No credit to the capabilities of the 109 although somewhat disrupted by such fitting of equipment? No credit to 109 G-6/R6 pilots who proved capable to evade any pursuing P-51s?

If so many G-6/R6´s managed to return to base after engaging Jugs and Mustangs, what could one think of a Bf 109 bearing only its classical weapons? Surely more capable.

Me109G/Fw190A (all series) were very capable fighters, diminished slightly with attempt to make more effective against bombers...but I couldn't be more clear in my previous post that I thought the Fw190A6 and A7 and the Me 109G-6 and above were essentially equivalent fighters - did I not?

Now the guncamera thing...i agree with you -and was also aware of it- that in so many times it was either a German guy or USA guy who got outflown and paid accordingly...i possibly used the wrong words, not that you can learn "tech specifications" of craft from watching guncamera footage, right...but my point is that you do not get to see that much footage shown P-51´s blowing in huge fire balls.

As you might imagine I have a pretty extensive collection myself including Luftwaffe film

What the videos did show me is that many many times P-51 pilots attempted evading procedures to no avail: the narrowest turning possible with the camera of the 109 or 190 remaining inside scoring hits, dives, climbing...huge fire balls from silly pilots with the drop tanks still under the wings...if a well trained pilot from the USAAF could not escape from the pursuing German then it also tells me the German was a very competitive pilot and that his plane allows for displaying the necessary skills to destroy your enemy.

Of course

I have ~85 shots of sauteed P-51s, plus dozens more showing similar fates of Jugs, Spitfires, Typhoons/Tempests and even some P-38s. What of the many other USAAF fighters that got shot down by the Luftwaffe? Were all those the cause of badly trained pilots manning inadequate planes??

of course not

QUOTE]

Udet - Kent Miller published a two volume rendition named "Fighter Units and Pilots of the 8th Air Force" Schiffer Books.. the first is a Daily summary of awards by Group/Sqdr/pilot and fighter plus Losses in similar format. The second half of Vol I are detailed statistics of each Fighter Group, including scores for all pilots - air and ground, what types etc.

The Second Volume is about details of All 8th AF fighter pilots with any score, plus a detailed summary of individual aces.

I am the foremost expert on the 355th FG and can say Miller did a good job on the 355th/SF portions considering he didn't spend near as much time on this group as I have. He made many small errors and a couple of bigger ones. That said it is 'pretty accurate', draws on USAF Study 85 for Air awards and contrasted with Frank Olynyks works plus USAAF VCB for all ground scores snd dates. The losses matched up to both Macrs (and my own earlier mistakes) from my history of the 355th - Angels, Bulldogs and Dragons.

I'll get back to Mustang ace versus P-47 ace shortly

[Erich]

I will concur with Bill about the 355th fg, he has it all wrapped up........... certainly there are gaps in any history LW or Allied, and if anything interviewing pilots from both sides concerning a dogfight many would tell you if given the chance again they would do things differently if they could.

here is another kicker : comparing the overall strengths in 1944 summer onward of the LW day fighter Geschwader to a typical 8th AF day fighter group. Even with the included extra staffel in a 3 gruppen Geschwader the LW was still under the gun...........

as it turns out this is more of a Udet to drgondog discussion so i will leave it be........

[Glider]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Sorry but there you are wrong. The Luftwaffe was actually very large. Production of aircraft actually increased throughout the years and even at the end of the war.

Germany was producing massive amounts of aircraft the the Luftwaffe never had a lack of aircraft and equipment. It lacked in fuel...

The Luftwaffe wasn't very large. It only grew by around 15% in the entire war from beginning to end. They did produce large quantaties of aircraft and this was a significant achievement but to all intents and purposes, they only replaced the planes destroyed.
As a comparison the RAF grew from 136(ish) squadrons in 1939 to 405 squadrons on Jan 1945.

Germany had plenty of aircraft. Hell just look at the Bf 109 which was the most produced aircraft in history if I recall.

See above comment

Bv 138: 4,023km (2,500 miles) 276 built none after 1942
Ha 139: 3,075 miles (4948km) None during the war (could be wrong on this)
Bv 222: 6100km (3,790 mph) 4 built
Bv 238: 3,790 miles (6100km) 1 built
Do 18: 2,175 miles (3,500km) 71 built none after 1940
Do 24: 2,950 miles (4750km) 135 built none after 1943
Do 26: 7100 km (4,412 miles) 6 built
Fw 200: 2,760 miles (4,440 km) 263 built

The problem was the number built. For practical purposes the Germans didn't have more than a minimal and patchy maritime recce ability

[drgondog]

Udet - back to Mustang aces vs Jug aces.

Complex discussion - simple answer - many more 51 aces than 38 or 47 aces. Simple reason - the bulk of the German Fighters shot down by USAAF fighters were by Mustangs.

Independent of overclaiming by both sides, the AWARDS by USAF were approximately 4,950 a/c in the air (4131 ground) - most by far German- in 213,873 sorties, and lost 2,520 total - all causes.

With 423,435 sorties the P-47 shot down 3,082 in the air (3,202 ground)- mostly German and lost 3,077.

With 129,849 sorties, the P-38 shot down 1,771 in the air (749 ground) - Most Japanese and lost 1,771.

Just looking at January - May 1944 a breakdown on air scores for the 47 and 51 and 38 groups in the 8th AF. The 9th AF 354FG scored large

P-51 Groups - 51 air to air only (USAF 85)
4th FG Mar-May 273
352 FG Apr-May 134
354 FG Jan-May 255
355 FG Mar-May 126
357 FG Feb-May 223
339 FG May1 41
359 FG May12 40
--------------------
total LReich ~ 1,092

Keeping this in perspective

P-38 Groups
20 FG Jan-May 50
55 FG Jan-May 25
364 FG Mar-May 30
----------------------
Total LReich ~ 105

P-47 Groups --------> mostly LufFlotte 3

4 FG Jan-Feb 58
78 FG Jan-May 88
352FG Jan-Apr9 44
353FG Jan-May 67
355FG Jan-Mar 8 22
356FG Jan-May 80
359FG Jan-May12 40
361FG Jan-May15 21
--------------------
Total Luft3 ~ 420

Draw your own conclusions regarding the combat effectiveness of the Mustang flying far few sorties than the P-47s in the 8th AF (~16 Group 'months' versus 33 for rough count). Simply stated 1/2 the activity and 2.5 more destruction (air alone) plus enormous damage strafing airfields.

While not all of the GAF downed by Mustangs were LuftReich - most were. Conversely the P-47s dueled JG11 and JG1 often but most were JG26 and JG2 in LufFlotte 3 region because of range restrictions.

Another reason for the higher scorers is reasonably simple - the key high scorers in P-47s started nearly a year before the Mustang aces (Gabreski, Johnson, Schilling, Zemke, Duncan, Mahurin, Christenson, Beckham to name most with scores above 18 were P-47 aces) and of course many have scores in both. For the 355th, they performed indifferently with P-47s and had only one ace that scored more than 3 in P-47s (Norm Olson with six air). Twenty scored from 5.0 to 14.2 - all Mustang aces starting their scoring after mid March 1944

As to low scoring relative to Luftwaffe you may imagine daylight operations against the USAAF offered a target rich environment for the LW while the reverse was quite true for US. My father was able to engage and shoot only five times to get 6 Me 109s and a Stuka from D-Day to September 11. In the latter part of his first tour and all of his second he was depty CO of the 355th and never able to find the LW in the area when he was leading.

Many Mustang aces had the same experience/

Regards,

Bill

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by Udet

SoDStitch:

I simply like the truth. Books such as the one i did describe focused on Bodenplatte used to pissed me off big time a very few of years ago, when i was still a teenager. Now i find them amusing.

The allies have lied big time about so many issues of the war; every aspect of the war has been targeted in a lesser or higher degree with their lies: weapons, battlefield records, politics.

In fact, i take most of what comes from the allied side with a grain of salt.

Perhaps you have seen Erich around here; well he himself shared his experiences with some historians or researchers from some USAAF bomber group when he was denied access to information or files. Why would that be? Because they want to hide the successes of such group?

Well...so you live in Tucson? I have not been at Sullivan´s for breakfast. Only for dinner, but hey, dinner is something like more special don´t you think? I rarely go out for breakfast wherever is it that i might be living in.

Dinner is really something; the day is over, and you want to forget about the things of the day whatever they are: bad day at work, your wife or girlfriends conspiracies, the IRS...

If you have not yet had dinner there you are missing something. I am of the opinion that the sophisticated ambience of a place gets enhanced during the night. Something that works marvelously in that restaurant. Also the bar has something special; i barely drink, but being at Sullivan´s bar before entering the dining room makes me want to have a cold beer or some good scotch...and the waitresses, yeah!

The last time i went there, i stayed there for about a week and a half; i stayed with a friend who lives in La Paloma. During such time we went there 4 times for dinner -two of those were in a row-; i have fun when i remember the face of the manager upon seeing me entering his dining room.

There was this appetizer which is unforgettable: Seared Ahi Tuna...small cuts of Albacore, seared in the outside, and that real creamy buttery flavor in the inside...you should really try it. The oysters...well, the USA has really got one of the greatest logistic systems on earth...a city in the middle of the Sonora Desert, not far from the border with Mexico and you can have some of the freshest and best oysters you can think of...as if you were in some fishermen village by the sea side...on a different setting -and surrounded by fine women in black-.

I loved the black outfit all the waitresses; whenever is it that i come back, i might give you a call.

Unfortunately (or fortunately), I do not live in Tuscon, my brother did; we were visiting him and had a chance to have breakfast there (nice restaurant!). Also spent some time in Flagstaff (beautiful town!).

And, yes, I do remember the waitresses; in fact, I vaguely remember trying to hit on one. Unfortunately, 9:00 AM in the morning is not the best time to try & pick up women, even if you do look like Don Johnson . . .

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Glider

The Luftwaffe wasn't very large. It only grew by around 15% in the entire war from beginning to end. They did produce large quantaties of aircraft and this was a significant achievement but to all intents and purposes, they only replaced the planes destroyed.
As a comparison the RAF grew from 136(ish) squadrons in 1939 to 405 squadrons on Jan 1945.

In that case yes you are correct. I will agree....

Originally Posted by Glider

See above comment



The problem was the number built. For practical purposes the Germans didn't have more than a minimal and patchy maritime recce ability

For the most part overall numbers built was not bad. There were more than eneogh aircraft to do the mission, especially when you include the 500+ built Ar 196 and 130+ He 115 for closer range and coastal recce.

I will agree however that the maritime ability was dodgy but not based off of numbers of aircraft.

Your numbers for the Do 24 are incorrect however but that is also irrelevent.

Do 24: 279 were built right up until 1945.

[comiso90]

I have to congratulate the participants in the Best WW2