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03-07-2007, 08:13 AM
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#106 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,004
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by Udet  In the end the allies reached the adequate balance of ingredients in the recipe to defeat the enemy | Bingo!
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"  | 
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03-07-2007, 09:57 PM
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#107 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2
Country:  | Given the state of the various air arms in 1939 and in 1945, it has to be the USAAF/USN, with enormous air fleets in the war theatres backed by a huge training program and an engineering and logistics support endeavour across the globe, with aircraft that were consistently at the leading edge in performance, improved as time went on, and also supplied their allies.
Very few clunkers in the line-up, unlike the Brits.
Apart from the insistence on unescorted bomber formations, through to October 43, the USAAF/USN was flexible and willing to learn and showed the other side what air power was all about.
Unlike the Germans and Japanese, the US air effort was commanded by people who understood what air power could do, and were backed by a great collection of engineering design offices.
People like Galland were basically ineffective in high command because they were not heeded by the very highest command folks who were yes men to the Fuhrer. No way to run an air force at war. (In Vietnam, different situation but same result from political stupidity.)
1939-1945, consider the size of the air forces and locations of operations and it has to be USAAF/USN. | |
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03-08-2007, 03:42 AM
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#108 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Adelaide
Posts: 31
Country: | USAAF simply because when a mustang and B-17 were over berlin the germans lost the war | |
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03-08-2007, 06:09 AM
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#109 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,952
Country: | They lost the War before that...
__________________  "Boyington was a Drunk, but He was a Drunk We'd Follow Straight Into Hell..."
-- Lt. William Northrop Case | |
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03-08-2007, 10:25 AM
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#110 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,240
Country: | Even with all its organizational and managerial flaws, the Luftwaffe is ranked second.
The RAF performance was mediocre during the so called Battle of Britain, and although it managed to survive, it was badly battered and in real bad shape.
Keep in mind the Luftwaffe put the most brutal pressure against them during only a very few months; since Great Britain was not the plan, the Germans put their eyes in the east, even if aerial operations over England were maintained until the spring of 1941.
Although British keepers of the truth love mingling, twisting and manipulating the "official dates" for the occurrence of the BoB, the periods of most intensity of the German aerial offensive are only a fistful of months.
I would have liked to see the RAF fighting against two or three enemy air forces at the same time; if against the Luftwaffe their performance was mediocre, enough to survive though, not forgetting Germany was not seeking anything like "complete surrender" of Great Britain, rather trying to make peace.
Put the RAF to fight two or more enemy air forces and they do not last a month.
RAF organization and management was not any better than the Luftwaffe. The Spitfire Mk. V was still the main stay of the RAF when the Luftwafffe had already phased out the F series having the Gustav as the mainstay. And the Bf 109 G was clearly better than the Mk. V.
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Last edited by Udet : 03-08-2007 at 10:27 AM.
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03-08-2007, 06:37 PM
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#111 | | Member
Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: I am living in Vermont but my heart is in the Arizona desert.
Posts: 43
Country: | Okay you folks are gonna get my nickels worth, ("inflation"). A lot of folks think Britain was victorious over Germany and that the RAF defeated the Luftwaffe. The truth is America defeated Germany. The RAF were getting their butts kicked and America bailed them out. Anyone remember the Lend Lease program. By the way did the Brits ever pay the Americans back?
I "100%" agree that the concentration of equipment and manpower defeated the Luftwaffe. But to say it was the best airforce is an exercise in patriotism.
If the Luftwaffe had attacked Britain and not fought on so many fronts the RAF would have been destroyed. But the leaders of Germany bit of more then they could chew. And America would have been hard pressed to fight a battle in Europe without British bases. And if I remember correctly Hitler did not want to tangle with the US anyway. That was Tojo who started the fight with America. A fight that would not have lasted as long if America had not had to split its forces.
Of course this is an argument that will go on forever. But if you study the history of the conflict. It was simply a matter of money. The US had more. The war the American Air Force fought was fought on foreign soil. And the American industrial complex was safe from attack. Things may have been a little different if the Me-264 had been built in the numbers the B-17s were built in. 
Rall
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03-08-2007, 07:45 PM
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#112 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,004
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by JG57_Rall Things may have been a little different if the Me-264 had been built in the numbers the B-17s were built in.
Rall | Would of, could of, should of..... 
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
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03-08-2007, 08:06 PM
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#113 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by JG57_Rall Okay you folks are gonna get my nickels worth, ("inflation"). A lot of folks think Britain was victorious over Germany and that the RAF defeated the Luftwaffe. The truth is America defeated Germany. The RAF were getting their butts kicked and America bailed them out. Anyone remember the Lend Lease program. By the way did the Brits ever pay the Americans back?
I "100%" agree that the concentration of equipment and manpower defeated the Luftwaffe. But to say it was the best airforce is an exercise in patriotism.
If the Luftwaffe had attacked Britain and not fought on so many fronts the RAF would have been destroyed. But the leaders of Germany bit of more then they could chew. And America would have been hard pressed to fight a battle in Europe without British bases. And if I remember correctly Hitler did not want to tangle with the US anyway. That was Tojo who started the fight with America. A fight that would not have lasted as long if America had not had to split its forces.
Of course this is an argument that will go on forever. But if you study the history of the conflict. It was simply a matter of money. The US had more. The war the American Air Force fought was fought on foreign soil. And the American industrial complex was safe from attack. Things may have been a little different if the Me-264 had been built in the numbers the B-17s were built in.
Rall | Well lets see here:
Yes, USA had the greatest b/c :
- B/c its industries were not under attack by air or land. The best bomber there is, is a tank sitting right on top of an enemy's plant.
- It had the greatest industrial base in the world, no one was even close.
- It's planes were of the finest quality (not always the best but very very good), top quality.
- It had the best long range bomber in the world.
- It had bucket loads and very highly trained pilots.
- It had the BOMB, that no one else had.
- It adapted proven tactics quickly.
The end.
Next you said the LW was "could" of defeated RAF...? When in the BoB? During all of WW2? When are you talking about?
Next you said USA defeated Germany. How? During the air war? In WW2?
Actually it does not matter when you were talking about in this case. USA did not defeat Germany by herself. The Allies defeated Germany, thats including Russia, USA, UK (including all her allies also) they defeated Germany together.
To end this post I agree with Joe:
Would of, could of, should of.
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03-09-2007, 09:59 AM
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#114 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,456
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by JG57_Rall Okay you folks are gonna get my nickels worth, ("inflation"). A lot of folks think Britain was victorious over Germany and that the RAF defeated the Luftwaffe. The truth is America defeated Germany. The RAF were getting their butts kicked and America bailed them out. Anyone remember the Lend Lease program. By the way did the Brits ever pay the Americans back? | That is rediculous! Sorry but you are wrong. The RAF was able to defeat the Germans in the BoB without the US. I will go as far as saying the Luftwaffe was better than the RAF during the BoB but the simple fact remains the Luftwaffe did not win airial superiority and did not win the BoB. So how did the US defeat Germany in the BoB? Come on now...
Yes it is true the allies could not have done it without the US lend lease but when it came to fighting the war, it was an allied effort. THE ALLIES DEFEATED GERMANY. Quote: |
Originally Posted by JG57_Rall Things may have been a little different if the Me-264 had been built in the numbers the B-17s were built in.
Rall | As others stated Could have, Should have.....did not.
The Germans realised the need for heavy Strategic bombers when it was too late.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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03-09-2007, 12:38 PM
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#115 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,240
Country: | Wold you guys agree with the notion it was the entrance of the U.S.A. in the war that sealed the destiny of the conflict?
If for some reason the U.S.A. remains isolated, i do not think Germany can be defeated.
What´s interesting is the fact there are people in the west who gets pissed off at the idea of USAers believing it was the USA who won the wat "alone".
If most of these guys could visit or stay in Russia for a while, they´d be likewise pissed off to discover the bulk of the russians do believe and affirm it was the USSR who won the war alone, and that any sort of contribution made by UK and USA is either marginal or non-existant.
They´d be discovering an entirely new approach to the matter. 
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In a national survey, 92% of the French people believed they are not ugly: 93% of them were wrong. | |
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03-09-2007, 12:50 PM
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#116 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,004
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Udet Wold you guys agree with the notion it was the entrance of the U.S.A. in the war that sealed the destiny of the conflict? | To a point I agree... Quote:
Originally Posted by Udet If for some reason the U.S.A. remains isolated, i do not think Germany can be defeated. | That's what Joseph Kennedy (Ambassador to the UK) wanted. Quote:
Originally Posted by Udet What´s interesting is the fact there are people in the west who gets pissed off at the idea of USAers believing it was the USA who won the wat "alone". | Rightfully so - the US involvement was certainly a "deal sealer" but we didn't or couldn't do it alone Quote:
Originally Posted by Udet If most of these guys could visit or stay in Russia for a while, they´d be likewise pissed off to discover the bulk of the russians do believe and affirm it was the USSR who won the war alone, and that any sort of contribution made by UK and USA is either marginal or non-existant.
They´d be discovering an entirely new approach to the matter. | I met people from Russia who knew little or nothing about the war in the Pacific. It seems that part of history was conveniently left out of their history books.
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT" | |
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03-09-2007, 12:56 PM
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#117 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,456
Country: | I would say it was a mixture of the entrance of the US and the invasion of Russia that sealed Germany fate. Germany could not fight both of these massive nations in terms of equipment and man power.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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03-09-2007, 12:58 PM
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#118 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,205
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Udet Wold you guys agree with the notion it was the entrance of the U.S.A. in the war that sealed the destiny of the conflict?
If for some reason the U.S.A. remains isolated, i do not think Germany can be defeated.
What´s interesting is the fact there are people in the west who gets pissed off at the idea of USAers believing it was the USA who won the wat "alone".
If most of these guys could visit or stay in Russia for a while, they´d be likewise pissed off to discover the bulk of the russians do believe and affirm it was the USSR who won the war alone, and that any sort of contribution made by UK and USA is either marginal or non-existant.
They´d be discovering an entirely new approach to the matter. |
-Yes USA sealed the deal, the last nail in the coffin.
-Not sure about Germany being beaten by UK and Russia alone. But damn it would of been alot more Russians killed thats for damn sure. It would of been a real slobber nocker, drag out fight. Very hard to call who would of won.
-Yes I also have read, seen and talked to people from USA who believe "they won" the war for the allies. Russia also believes that without Russian involvement the allies would of lost.
I will say this, if one or the other, USA or Russia, were not on the allied side then the war would of been much harder for the allies to win. Russia and USA were both HUGE help to the allied effort, which did more to aid the allies win? Thats a different thread, but a good one to debate.
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03-09-2007, 01:14 PM
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#119 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Rising Above
Posts: 1,240
Country: | Flyboy and hunter: agreed.
Being the member of a family highly involved in the military is that as boy, all i had heard was USSR did it all by itself.
It was not until i grew out of childhood and going to live abroad that i commenced hearing others stories.
I recall a small party we had at the appartment of a big friend of mine in Moscow a few years ago; with me was one of my Brit cousins, visiting Russia for the first time. Of course he did not -and does not- speak russian and to one point the lengthy conversation branched out to ww2. The debating increased the heat in the room, and my cousin asked me, "what the hell are they saying?" my response was "they are pissed off at the americans who claim to have won the war all by themselves".
Then, one of the other russian guys who handles english repeated the same thing to my cousin, but added "that is a lie...WE WON THE WAR ALONE!!!"
My cousin was with his eyes wide open to hear the comment. He already had issues with the notion of USAers saying they won the war alone, but that night he learned something new, from the other guys -and felt deeply pissed off to know of one of the parties claiming to have baked the cake all by themselves-.
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In a national survey, 92% of the French people believed they are not ugly: 93% of them were wrong. | |
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03-09-2007, 01:46 PM
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#120 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 384
Country:  | Hell everyone knows John Wayne won WWII single handed. Seriously though the whole Team America "We saved your ass" crap from certain individuals does tend to piss the few Brits with some national pride left. Even on the outbreak of the BOB their were some US journalists who gave us 6 weeks at most.
I am very much aware/indebted to the US contribution to the war but don't try pissing on are chips by taking away the victories achieved by both the RAF and her allies pre 1941 and their subsequent involvement.
In terms of numbers of Germans killed on the eastern front, the Russians could claim to have done more to defeat them. In terms of the land war German tank design should give us a pointer in who the Germans thought where the main threat post 41.
In the end it was a victory for all the allies apart from the Polish. But all paid the price in blood.
PS. Me264 in greater numbers than the B-17 never gonna happen even in a thousand years.
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Lieutenant George: How do you mean, sir? Do you mean, take her home at the week-end to meet your mother?
Lord Flasheart: No! I mean get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
Captain Blackadder: I'm beginning to see why the suffragette movement are wanting the vote.
Lord Flasheart: Hey, hey! Any girl who wants to chain herself to my railings and suffer a jet movement gets my vote!
Last edited by bigZ : 03-09-2007 at 01:53 PM.
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