Best WWII Air-Force

Hunter368 · 03-09-2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigZ

Even on the outbreak of the BOB their were some US journalists who gave us 6 weeks at most.

It was not just US journalists who thought that, pretty much everyone thought that. Very few people actually thought UK would hold out vs the Germans. That was not just US feelings on the matter but a very widely held opinion at the time.

Gnomey · 03-09-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigZ

Hell everyone knows John Wayne won WWII single handed. Seriously though the whole Team America "We saved your ass" crap from certain individuals does tend to piss the few Brits with some national pride left. Even on the outbreak of the BOB their were some US journalists who gave us 6 weeks at most.

I am very much aware/indebted to the US contribution to the war but don't try pissing on are chips by taking away the victories achieved by both the RAF and her allies pre 1941 and their subsequent involvement.

In terms of numbers of Germans killed on the eastern front, the Russians could claim to have done more to defeat them. In terms of the land war German tank design should give us a pointer in who the Germans thought where the main threat post 41.

In the end it was a victory for all the allies apart from the Polish. But all paid the price in blood.

PS. Me264 in greater numbers than the B-17 never gonna happen even in a thousand years.

Agreed. Without us winning the Battle of Britain and securing the "unsinkable aircraft carrier" the later half of the war wasn't going to happen the way it did. We needed the Americans, the Americans needed us and the Russians needed both of us and we needed the Russians. It was a team effort (as has been said repeatedly).

JG57_Rall · 03-09-2007, 04:50 PM

Well BigZ,
Why did America get involved in a fight in Europe anyway? Is it because England and the other countrys could not defeat Germany alone?It was the Japanese that started the war for the US and it was because of the alliance between Italy, Japan and Germany that America got involved.
The ground war was what it was but it was airpower not ground pounding that put an end to the war. But most of all it was the US industrial might and wealth that put an end to the war. Your right about the Me-264 its never gonna happen. Bet your glad it did`nt.

DerAdlerIstGelandet,
You hit it on the nose. It was the fact that Germany took on more then it could handle. Fighting Russia and America at the same time.

Hunter 368,
As far as I know, the best long range bomber in the world was not built at the American entrance into WWII. It seems to me that the B-17 was developed and given to England after Pearl Harbor. As well as the B-52 being developed after that. But I don`t know what was considered the best Long range bomber before that. I know it was`nt the Lancaster, maybe the Dornier.
And about "the Bomb", America got that from the Germans and developed it well after the american involvement began.

FLYBOYJ,
No not a woulda shoulda coulda situation. Just an observation, Kinda lucky for the free world that they never produced it.

To all,
As for the lend lease program, I still wonder if the Brits are ever gomnna pay the US back.

The Luftwaffe was the best trained and best equipped air force of its time. The pilots were the most experienced. This is a fact. It can be argued about till the end of time and the Victors of WWII can claim they were better but it will never change the truth.
The Germans war in europe was lost by the leaders. A bunch of crooks criminals and nuts. In my Opinion!
Also in my Opinion, I believe if the Nazi`s had followed the old Domino theory and captured one country at a time there was no standing Airforce in Europe that could stand before the battle hardened Luftwaffe.

Gnomey · 03-09-2007, 05:02 PM

America got involved in the fight in Europe because the German's declared war on them...

The American's certainly didn't get the bomb from the Germans (why??), the were given an insight by British scientists and were given these papers as well as a Cavity Magnetron (remarkable piece of engineering).

What ifs are kind of pointless in this thread as it is about the best with what they had overall and the case for Germany was time and time again too little too late.

Lead Lease was agreed to be free, the loans we have paid back in full with 2% interest were from the Marshall Plan. We are not going to pay the American's back for lead-lease especially this late after the war...

Agreed, the Germans had the best aircraft. On the pilot front each nation had well trained pilots (with the exception of the Japanese at the end of the war and most of the Russians), yes the Germans had experienced pilots because they were forced to be in combat without leave, the Allies took leave thus less time in combat. As for training the Germans didn't have a program at the end because of Allied air superiority and so for overall training program it has to be the American's and the Commonwealth.

The German war in Europe was lost because of lack of numbers and equipment with poor leadership playing only a part. The Germans did follow the domino theory until the ran up against the British whom the failed to defeat with the majority of the Luftwaffe. Hitler having felt he a nullified the threat turned his attention to Russia and we know how that went...

The Allied airforces stood up to the Luftwaffe perfectly well. Just because you have the best pilots and best aircraft doesn't mean you can win against superior numbers of slightly inferior aircraft and pilots of a similar calibre. The Allies did stand against the Battle hardened Luftwaffe despite them using the domino theory so that last sentence is bullsh*t...

Hunter368 · 03-09-2007, 05:06 PM

As far as lend lease goes (as given by Glider on another thread)

End of Lend Lease
Just picked an interesting point, which is in December this year the UK will pay the final installment of the Lend Lease debt incurred during and after WW2. The original debt was I believe around $31,000,000,000 dollars and the final $80,000,000 will be paid off at the end of the year.

No one from the UK Goverment has offically said what the final bill will be, as interest was added from the start, but the final figures, will we are told, be broken down at the end of the year. Should be interesting.

Its complicated as other debts were added to the lend lease bill which had differing rates of interest. The original lend lease was at 2%. The December Payment is the final payment for all the UK debts to the USA.

JG57_Rall · 03-09-2007, 05:11 PM

Yep the allies stood against Germany. But again no one country in Europe could have stood against the German Luftwaffe. It took several to defeat them.

And I could of sworn it was Pearl Harbor that brought America into the war.

I guess history books are different where you are.

As to the Lend Lease program. An old debt is still a debt. And a welcher is always a welcher.

And "The Bomb", I guess you never heard of New Mexico or Verner Von Braum?

Rall

JG57_Rall · 03-09-2007, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

As far as lend lease goes (as given by Glider on another thread)

End of Lend Lease
Just picked an interesting point, which is in December this year the UK will pay the final installment of the Lend Lease debt. The December Payment is the final payment for all the UK debts to the USA.

~S~ Hunter
I had not heard that.
Thanks for the info.
Rall

bigZ · 03-09-2007, 05:35 PM

Ral this may make some intresting reading.

Britain and the atomic bomb Brian Cathcart - openDemocracy

As reagrding debts and old scores. If I was to use your mentality. How about us Brits claiming £10,000 plus compound interest for criminal damage in 1773. Wasn't that all about not wanting to pay your dues?

This country is very much indebted to Roosevelt and the US people regarding the Lend Lease and the Marshall Plan please dont try and degrade it with your ill informed opinion. Without both of these Europe would have plunged back into a Post War depression which would have effected Americia.

Verner Von Braun had nothing to do with the A bomb.

Sorry to admin and all other members for straying.

JG57_Rall · 03-09-2007, 05:48 PM

BigZ,
I`ll take a look at that URL.
My mentality,and ill informed opinion. Haha,hehe.
Whats the matter? Am I rubbing you the wrong way, I sense that ol, colonial slave mentality creeping up.
When the American revolutionary war was fought it was fought over taxation without representation. Against an oppressive Imperialistic nation. The Americans just stopped paying tribute to King George.
Funny though, Even two hundred years ago America was kicking ass on tyrants.
Rall

syscom3 · 03-09-2007, 05:53 PM

Gnomey...."The Allied airforces stood up to the Luftwaffe perfectly well. Just because you have the best pilots and best aircraft doesn't mean you can win against superior numbers of slightly inferior aircraft and pilots of a similar calibre. The Allies did stand against the Battle hardened Luftwaffe despite them using the domino theory so that last sentence is bullsh*t..."

The Allies had just as many skilled pilots as the Luftwaffe. Just because your a German pilot doesnt automatically make you a superior pilot.

Plus the allies had plenty of types of aircraft that were better than their German counterparts DEPENDING ON THE MISSION.

The LW was completely overwhelmed by atrition, poor leadership and misplaced industrial policies.

pbfoot · 03-09-2007, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG57_Rall

BigZ,
I`ll take a look at that URL.
My mentality,and ill informed opinion. Haha,hehe.
Whats the matter? Am I rubbing you the wrong way, I sense that ol, colonial slave mentality creeping up.
When the American revolutionary war was fought it was fought over taxation without representation. Against an oppressive Imperialistic nation. The Americans just stopped paying tribute to King George.
Funny though, Even two hundred years ago America was kicking ass on tyrants.
Rall

Not to rub you the wrong way Rall but I take a little exception to your view of historyyou certainly wouldn't hurt yourself by reading some

syscom3 · 03-09-2007, 06:03 PM

Lets get back to the subject matter.

Anyone who thinks the best AF of WW2, wasnt the US, lets hear your reasons (even if its again).

JG57_Rall · 03-09-2007, 06:21 PM

Okay guys,
I got Von Bruan mixed up with Oppenheimer. It was a Brit that discovered the power in the Atom. I guess since its been over 20 years since I read about the Manhatten project, my memory of what I read has become clouded. Oops! Guess I will be reading a bit, LOL
I still say one on one the Luftwaffe would have been able to defeat any aiforce in existence. It was the combination of several countrys air forces that defeated the Luftwaffe. I read about airpower quite a lot and that is fresh in the old mind.
Rall

Gnomey · 03-09-2007, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

Gnomey...."The Allied airforces stood up to the Luftwaffe perfectly well. Just because you have the best pilots and best aircraft doesn't mean you can win against superior numbers of slightly inferior aircraft and pilots of a similar calibre. The Allies did stand against the Battle hardened Luftwaffe despite them using the domino theory so that last sentence is bullsh*t..."

The Allies had just as many skilled pilots as the Luftwaffe. Just because your a German pilot doesnt automatically make you a superior pilot.

Plus the allies had plenty of types of aircraft that were better than their German counterparts DEPENDING ON THE MISSION.

The LW was completely overwhelmed by atrition, poor leadership and misplaced industrial policies.

Read further on and I say the allies had pilots of the same calibre. Every nation has good pilots and pilots.

Agreed but in terms of interceptors and bomber destroyers the Germans were the best.

davparlr · 03-09-2007, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter368

As far as lend lease goes (as given by Glider on another thread)

End of Lend Lease
Just picked an interesting point, which is in December this year the UK will pay the final installment of the Lend Lease debt incurred during and after WW2. The original debt was I believe around $31,000,000,000 dollars and the final $80,000,000 will be paid off at the end of the year.

No one from the UK Goverment has offically said what the final bill will be, as interest was added from the start, but the final figures, will we are told, be broken down at the end of the year. Should be interesting.

Its complicated as other debts were added to the lend lease bill which had differing rates of interest. The original lend lease was at 2%. The December Payment is the final payment for all the UK debts to the USA.

You need to read Gnomey entry right before yours. Lend Lease for war effort was forgiven. What was paid back was post war recovery money borrowed by Great Britain.