Brewster F2A Buffalo or P-39 Airacobra?

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

The "deals" look like intakes of some kind, I'm not sure.

Do you see the windows in the belly?

Yes, I see the windows.
I wasn't aware those existed on the F4F. I thought that was only something particular to the Brewster.

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Graeme, thanks for the answer. I should've known!

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Kool Kitty89,

I think the reason the P-39 lost its 2-stage supercharger is because of a little thing called the Rolls Merlin.
The US government deemed it cheaper and quicker to simply build those under license rather than continue to spend money and time developing the Allison.
Seemed the Alli got the short end of the stick all through the war, since several tests were made on P-40's with 2-stage supercharged Alli's making in excess of 1600HP, yet most were relagated to the 1295HP model (exception being the 1475HP P-38's w/ GE electric superchargers).
The "non-turbo'd" P-39 you mentioned should be those powered with the single stage supercharger.
I don't think any Turbocharged Alli's ever made into combat.



Elvis

[ToughOmbre]

P-39 gets my vote.

Two things to stay away from...

An ugly woman, and an ugly airplane, especially one built by Brewster.

TO

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by ToughOmbre

P-39 gets my vote.

Two things to stay away from...

An ugly woman, and an ugly airplane, especially one built by Brewster.

TO

[kool kitty89]

Tyhe allison got a 2-stage supercharger (albeit only a primative one at first, w/out intercooler and other such advancements as the Merlin-61) by the end of the war V-1710's had advanced superchargers available, though some of these (particularly those used on post-war P-82s) were more probematic than the Merlin.

The simple 2-stage supercharger (auxillery supercharger) sucessfully raised the critical altitude to ~23,000-25,000 ft (~21,000 ft for WEP) and such models were used in all production P-63A/C's the C's engine was particularly powerful with 1,500 HP WEP and 1,800 HP with water injection at SL.

It was the USAAC's policy of relying on turbo chargers (as they saw the advantage over conventional superchargers) for high altitude performance and had Allison focus on low-altitude superchargers for all else. Thus the V-1710 go a late start on development of other designs.

The V-1710 also used an integral single-speed supercharger, ulike the 2-speed supercharger of all but very early (Mk.I-III iirc) single-stage Merlins. The single stage supercharger could be tuned for higher critical altitudes with the disadvantage of restricted throttle setings down low (to prevent overboost). For example the V-1710-81 that powered the P-40M/N and P-51A, actually gave higher performance at medium altitudes and similar performance at 20,000 ft as the Merlin engined P-40s. It was limited to 1,200 hp for takeoff but at 5,000 ft it could produce its full WEP of 1,480 hp which could be maintained up to 10,400 ft. Millitary power of 1,125 hp could be produced up to 17,500 ft, and the engine was still making 836 hp at 25,100 ft.

With this engine the P-51A could actually outpeform the early P-51B of the same time period (give or take a couple months) at medium altitudes. With 415 mph at 10,400 ft in WEP, and 408 mph at 17,500 ft in Mil power. Range was about the same with the same fuel load. With 67" boost the P-51B was about equal at these altitudes, granted the A was lighter with a lighter engine, and no intercooler and acompanied ducting but the V-1710 had ~10-15" less boost at critical WEP altitude. Even at 25,100 ft the P-51A was making a respectable 395 mph with 836 hp!

See: Mustang (Allison Engine) Performance Trials http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...51a-1-6007.jpg http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...httestdata.jpg

[kool kitty89]

I think the F2A's a nice lookin' little fighter, at least as good as the F4F, and agressive looking from the nose. But what do I know, I think the P-47 looks better than the P-51 and the Fw-190A-9 looks better than the D-9...

At least I don't think the Lanc looks better than a B-17! Or think most WWII French bombers look good. Though the Amiot 351 series and (to a lesser extent) the LeO 451 weren't bad looking.

[kool kitty89]

I hadn't realized that either the F2A or F4F had belly windows until I played Il-2 Sturmovik (1946 DVD: entire collection up to 1946 addition). The F2A certainly has a more substantial vewing area.

From what I've seen and read all but the XF2A-1 had the window there. A side note: Brewster sold the prototype to the Finns along with the B-239's. Note: aldo, it is incorrect to refer to the Finns B-239's as Buffalos, they were active before the RAF even named the a/c and the Finns simply called the a/c the "Brewster" or "Sky Pearl."

We can't go looking at them now and comparing since there's only one intact surviving:
From Wikipedia:

Surviving Brewster Buffalo are extremely rare, as their construction quality was generally poor, and most were quickly dispatched to foreign military service. It was long thought no intact Buffalo remained, but during Summer 1998, a Finnish B-239 (serial no. BW-372) was discovered in a Russian lake, Big Kolejärvi, about 50 kilometers from Segezha, Russia. This aircraft was identified as one of the 44 Model 239s sold to Finland during the Winter War.

On 25 June 1942, BW-372 piloted by Lieutenant Lauri Pekuri was in a formation of eight Brewsters that encountered a mixed squadron of Soviet Hurricanes and MiG-3s. In the clash, seven Soviet aircraft were damaged. Lieutenant Pekuri shot down two Hurricane fighters (he had to his credit 18 kills, including seven Hurricanes) but his fighter was hit by heavy cannon fire from a MiG-3 and he was forced to ditch the burning Brewster in Big Kolejärvi lake. Pekuri survived with minor injuries and managed to walk 20 km to the Finnish lines.

The aircraft was recovered from the lake in 1998, and after extensive negotiations with Russian officials, it was finally transported to the United States. The Brewster fighter finally reached the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola, Florida, on 18 August 2004. After discovering the historic nature of the aircraft, original plans to restore and display it as an F2A from the Battle of Midway were quickly dispensed with. The museum plans to reassemble the Brewster and display it exactly as it came from the lake in Russia. Damage caused by enemy fire and subsequent crash landing will not be disturbed. As near as possible, it will be fully authentic and original and instantly recognizable as a Finnish Air Force B-239 at a point in time when it made its last flight in hostile skies and settled to the bottom of the lake.

Another interesting note is that the F2A is the only American built fighter aircraft using a radial engine and with a conical prop spinner to see service in WWII.

[Graeme]

Another 'glass-bottomed' Brewster was their SB2A-2 dive bomber..

[Elvis]

KK89,

Sounds like we're in agreement.

Here's something; The Last Flight of BW-372

Its a computer generated thing, but kinda cool to watch.



Elvis

[kool kitty89]

Aparently belly windows were somewhat common in USN carrier a/c.

I'd probably take a P-40 (depending on model), or maybe a Hurricane over either though. One problem with the Hurricane Mk.I the Finns had (but disliked) was that the 8x .303 (or 7.92 mm) guns were virtualy useless aganst an Il-2's armor though the oil-cooler could be disabled (and the gunner killed) this might stop the completion of a mission. The Brewster was slower than the Hurricane but had a longer fireing time with .50's being better suited to the role. (plus the nose mounted guns were more acurate -no convergence zone-) The B-239 could out-climb the Hurricane I and had similar Maneuverabillity, albeit lower top speed. The P-36's (Hawk-75) that the Finns had also only had RCMG's. Aganst most russian fighters and many twin-engined bombers RCMG's could be decently affective. Even worse with only 4x .303's (or 7.92 mm) of the Finns' Gladiators, though I'd still take it over an I-153 or I-16, who would want want an open cockpit in that climate!

Another thing to note on the F2A's guns is that on all production models (as far as I know) had ammo gauges for the nose guns, one of the few (if not only) a/c in WWII to have one. In this manner pilots would know just how many rounds were left in there nose guns, though they still had to guess for the wing guns.

It should also be noted that the Finn's planes, being early models, were likely built to a higher quality than those produced after the start of WWII. (Particularly the late export Models ie B-339E AKA Buffalo Mk.I) The Finns also made modifications to the engines to improve reliabillity and performance (improved oil circulation by inverting cylinder rings), as well as they didn't have to worry about the gear collapse that carrier based craft did. (neither did other land-based models).


In addition to the friendly handeling of the Brewster the cockpit was also roomy and well organized. (and of course, visibillity was excelent)

[kool kitty89]

Oh and I forgot about the VL Humu, though it was a copy and only a single built. (with much subtitute materials due to shortages, similar in construction to the Myrsky)

[Elvis]

Humu was wood/metal composite Finn copy of B-239.
Wood used because of the high number of craftsman in that coutry and the vast amount of wood available.
Also, engine was same as russian M-63, so any downed aircraft that had salvagable engines could be swapped out for the Wright 1820's, once they reached TBO.
I think the Finn's never went through with the Humu program because the Russians ended up winning that battle before production could commence.
I'll have to research that article I have, again, and I see if that's mentioned.

Nice pic, btw. Thanks for posting that.



Elvis

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Oh and I forgot about the VL Humu, though it was a copy and only a single built. (with much subtitute materials due to shortages, similar in construction to the Myrsky)

What are those engines in front of the Brewster? Do you know? The one on the left looks like a DB601, and the one on the right looks like a V-1710.

[kool kitty89]

It probably id a 601. I dont know about the right one, maybe a russian engine.

And as for an indigenous Finnish fighter, the Myrsky II was better than the Humu and it's only major problems were with the wooden construction in wet climates. It had 4x 12.7 mm guns concentrated in the nose as well giving good acurate firepower. it was a good 20-30 mph faster than the B-239 as well and climbed as well, though wing loading was somewhat higher. Plus the Myrsky was in production by the time the Humu prototype was ready and the Humu turned out to be heavier than the Brewster as well. Although the Myrsky did have some structural problems as well (mostly in high speed maneuvers) I doubt the Humu would have been much better at this and in most respects it was a decent a/c, although outclassed in 1944 it was still better in some ways than the Me 109's the Finns had received. (wider track landing gear and better low-medium speed aneuverabillity, better visibillity, tougher engine, longer range, armament debatable)

[claidemore]

Judging by the bolts on the valve covers, that would be a Merlin engine beside the DB.

[Elvis]

Originally Posted by SoD Stitch

What are those engines in front of the Brewster? Do you know? The one on the left looks like a DB601, and the one on the right looks like a V-1710.

Black engine is a Junkers Jumo 211.
Blue engine is either a Rolls or Packard Merlin (I'm leaning towards Rolls).



Elvis