Do 335 vs Me 262

[109ROAMING]

Originally posted by Soren
The reason the Me-262 didn't have a collosal impact was again because of a number of stupid mistakes by Hitler. The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43. Furthermore the Me-262 was designed purely to be a fighter, Hitler however made his second big mistake here by suddenly getting the "bright" idea that it was to be used as a fighter-bomber! The Me-262 was however not suited for the role of fighter-bomber as the a/c was so clean an fast that it would quickly exceed the 1,000 km/h safety speed in a dive, rendering it useless in the role. Yet Hitler forced MTT to focus production on a fighter-bomber version (A-2) instead of the lighter & faster fighter version (A-1a), and had them operate as fighter bombers for some time before finally realizing himself, in light of the huge success of the Me-262's operating as fighters, that he had made a painful mistake. First from then on did the Me-262 mainly operate as a fighter interceptor, the role it was designed and built to perform from the very beginning, and in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war (90% of all Me-262's destroyed were so while either landing, taking off or whilst sitting on the ground). However by then it was too little too late.

Anyway that's just the issue regarding the Me-262, Hitler made plenty of other big mistakes in the same timeframe which also contributed to Germany's final defeat. One of them was not listening to Rommel and other generals pleading him not to allow the Allies to ever set foot in France in the case of an invasion. Instead Hitler made the grave mistake of listening to Rundstedt who not only expected the invasion elsewhere, but also positioned the Panzers too far back. And then when the invasion finally came Hitler held back the panzers from quickly heading to aid the beach defenders, and this was despite his generals letting him know how vital that was, allowing the Allies to gain a foothold on th beach.

And the list of mistakes goes on and on. In short the war was far from over even in mid 44. The Germans could've prevented the Allies ever coming ashore in France, and they could even have pushed them back when they did, but Hitler amongst other screwed up every chance to do so.

Now that having been said the Germans couldn't have won the war by 1944, but they could've brought it to a standstill. Then comes the question "for how long?", well that's anyone's guess.

Alot of good info in that post Soren!

Rundstedt plan really was stupid even if the panthers were in the right positions , RAF typhoons would of crippled them

on a doco I watched the other day an american said "when I saw those RAF typhoons flying over I thought to myself I'm sure glad they're on our side"

one question about D-day, on the movie saving private ryan on D-day when alot of americans are being gun downed on omaha why wasn't there any air support? I know there was an estimated 2000 american dead on omaha beach, is the movie incorrect or is that how it happened? why wasn't there a squadron of P-47 or P-51's assigned to taking out these positions just before the troops hit the beach? and thus save alot of americans lives?an allied stuff up?not enough planes?

[runningdog]

Originally Posted by Soren

I still don't agree, you're not being objective.

We're never going to agree on this, mate. In fact, I think we're arguing two different perspectives, I'll call it quits if you will, I'm sure we'll clash again.
LoL, runningdog.


PS I meant to add that I agree with you on Hitler's role in the later part of the war.............

[Juha]

Soren
Quote:"The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43."

Powered by which engine, Jumo 004B wasn't ready in late 43?

Quote:"Yet Hitler forced MTT to focus production on a fighter-bomber version (A-2) "

And Willy didn't have any part in that decision?

Quote:"in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war ."

And what that magical Kill/loss ratio was?

Quote:"90% of all Me-262's destroyed were so while either landing, taking off or whilst sitting on the ground"

Have you already forgot Drgondog's message on 15th July
"So far, for the distribution of the combined 339FG, 352FG, 355FG and 357 FG jet awards, there were 44 Me 262 Awards. Of those (~40% of all 8th AF awards) that I have looked at in the last day -

25% (12)were hit at altitude and resulted in destruction or bail out
50% (22)were hit at altitude, chased and destroyed while attempting to reach protection of airfield flak and air cover but not in landing pattern.
25% (12) were destroyed during take off or landing."

Soren, realistic picture on Me 262 can be find for ex. from Boehme's JG 7

Juha

[Soren]

Try not to rely too much on Wiki Juha..

Originally Posted by Juha

Soren
Quote:"The first mistake was delaying its entry into service until mid 44 while it infact was ready already in late 43."

Powered by which engine, Jumo 004B wasn't ready in late 43?

It was very much ready, but again Hitler delayed its journey to full scale production by temporarily cutting the budget. Had Hitler not stalled development then the vibration problems would've been solved in late 1943 (Cutting rpm from 9,000 to 8,700 rpm) and the engine could enter full scale production.

And Willy didn't have any part in that decision?

No absolutely not, he protested against it, but if he wanted the jet to enter service it had to be made a fighter-bomber Hitler told him, and so he was forced to produce the A-2 version.

Quote:"in the air it acquired itself the highest Kill/loss ratio of any a/c of the war ."

And what that magical Kill/loss ratio was?

Possibly 10/1 if not higher

Have you already forgot Drgondog's message on 15th July
"So far, for the distribution of the combined 339FG, 352FG, 355FG and 357 FG jet awards, there were 44 Me 262 Awards. Of those (~40% of all 8th AF awards) that I have looked at in the last day -

25% (12)were hit at altitude and resulted in destruction or bail out
50% (22)were hit at altitude, chased and destroyed while attempting to reach protection of airfield flak and air cover but not in landing pattern.
25% (12) were destroyed during take off or landing."

Soren, realistic picture on Me 262 can be find for ex. from Boehme's JG 7

Juha

I haven't forgotten Bill's comment at all, but the Me-262 shot down 600+ Allied a/c in the air, so you do the math.

[Soren]

[QUOTE=runningdog;399905]We're never going to agree on this, mate. In fact, I think we're arguing two different perspectives, I'll call it quits if you will, I'm sure we'll clash again.
LoL, runningdog.[/qoute]

Well I'd like to know which part it is you disagree with specifically.

PS I meant to add that I agree with you on Hitler's role in the later part of the war.............

Oh he screwed up the German war effort starting already in late 1941 mate. Hitler's period of glory was from the start of WW2 and up until the struggle for Stalingrad in the winter of 41. Hitler was completely disillusioned by his swift victories in the west and the quick advance on the east up to Stalingrad. He thought nothing could stop his forces, he thought they were bloody machines and that they only needed ammunition to survive - the Russian winter (the worst the country has ever recorded) shattered that belief.

[kool kitty89]

And there were a lot of screw-ups with the BoB, although many were not caused directly by Hitler.

[109ROAMING]

Goring aided Hitler in losing the BoB

[kool kitty89]

I forgot to add the 'not" (fixed now). That's what I had intended to imply, there were several reasons resposable for screw-ups in the BoB. (in addition to Goring, there were also other problems caused by the RLM and some of the doctrines therof)

[drgondog]

Soren - I gotta ask. what is your source for 600+ allied a/c shot down?

And correspondingly the source for losses? I have the 8th AF VCB awards for air to air on 262's which was 110. There are slightly fewer for USAF 85.

What LW records are you using?

[Erich]

Bill supposedly Jg 7 alone scored some 450 kills. well maybe 250 and that is it, not counting the 50 that supposedly Kommando Nowotny claimed, will not say what 10./NJG 11 claimed as it will be covered in my book(s). we have KG 51 and 54 as well

sorry to say that nearly 3/4r's of the Jg 7 kills are not covered in text only a scant in books now printed.

JG 7 must say made a dire impression on the 8th AF which then in turn went to the 15th and because of it JV 44 which claimed 50 kills but probably scored 20 was held as a unit of experten which is a joke, most pilots enver even flew the 262 except on familiarization trials on the tarmac or grass fields, a great unit to hide out until the war was over your life was secure until captured by Allied forces.

Also to the end of JG 7 we know as well they made quite the deadly impression on the Soviets with most of the missions and kills never recorded down or in fact were lost

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

Bill supposedly Jg 7 alone scored some 450 kills. well maybe 250 and that is it, not counting the 50 that supposedly Kommando Nowotny claimed, will not say what 10./NJG 11 claimed as it will be covered in my book(s). we have KG 51 and 54 as well

sorry to say that nearly 3/4r's of the Jg 7 kills are not covered in text only a scant in books now printed.

JG 7 must say made a dire impression on the 8th AF which then in turn went to the 15th and because of it JV 44 which claimed 50 kills but probably scored 20 was held as a unit of experten which is a joke, most pilots enver even flew the 262 except on familiarization trials on the tarmac or grass fields, a great unit to hide out until the war was over your life was secure until captured by Allied forces.

Also to the end of JG 7 we know as well they made quite the deadly impression on the Soviets with most of the missions and kills never recorded down or in fact were lost

Erich - I was and am impressed with the 262 - always. Having researched a pretty fair amount of the LW claims to US losses in trying to pinpoint 'loss to cause' for 8th, I have been impressed by one key fact - the overclaims were close to 2:1 if Tony Woods compliation is correct. And Tony has very few awards relatively speaking fro 1945. Thus my curiosity for all sources.

[Erich]

JG by Manfred Boehme, the word on JG 7 well at least so far. it is not real specific on the missions flown nor the kills, have had the original German version since first put out, some errors rectified, and I have tons of pasted notes within, still go back to it often.

the Classic pubs 4 volume set on the 262 some of it is war diary with some interesting text not all correct especailly on Kommando Welters unit. A callsic though it is.

Foreman/Harvey Me 262 war diary, a different book of text, the pics suck. some 200 claims by the LW 262 units covered in brief and the RAF/US response to the units.

an older title but still a good one : Jet Airplanes of the 3rd Reich by Smith/Creek, covers nearly all the operational LW jets including some very strange proto's and futuristic plans

Alfred Price has covered time and time again the 262/Ar 234 and other rocket/jet kills in some of his books.

I could go on and probably should as there are several German publications written over the years with differences of opinion(s) as to the number of proven kill-claims.

Roger Freemans book on the 8th covering day to day missions what has been interesting for me as I continue to search and write about the 262 vs 8th/15th AF fighters is the amount of limited coverage their-in and in fact most of the downings from February of 45 till wars end by the LW is in the shape of JG 7's jets, and is hereby noted by the US 8th AF bomber crew veterans that observed the Swallows flying through the rear to front of the Bombers. Bill you have probably noted from time to time the limited discussion that I and others have had about this very item on armyairforces.com. few of the vets responded due to the fact that nothing they could do physically to bring the jets down as they could not track the jet with their point .50's.

[runningdog]

[QUOTE=Soren;400038]

Originally Posted by runningdog

We're never going to agree on this, mate. In fact, I think we're arguing two different perspectives, I'll call it quits if you will, I'm sure we'll clash again.
LoL, runningdog.[/qoute]

Well I'd like to know which part it is you disagree with specifically.

First off, I think you're entirely right about the Stalingrad thing. It's not as if no one attempted to warn him of the oncoming weather and the dangers it posed for ill-equipped troops.
As for my specific disagreement, it's not specific, it's general. The ability to manufacture Me 262's in the numbers required was already beyond the Third Reich unless they robbed resources from other projects. That's my point, no matter how effective the 262 might have been it would have cost more to deliver than it's effect.
Even if it had blunted the Allied air offensive, and that is simply conjecture, it would have had little effect on the Russian onslaught. I've not argued for or against any particular date for the war's end in Europe, simply about the moment it was lost.
You, it seems to me, are like Hitler himself was, arguing possibilities, hoping for miracles. I try to argue probalities.
That said, nothing is certain in war, which applies to my arguments as well as yours.

[Juha]

Hello Erich
in 1994 Price claimed that after careful study of both sides claims and losses he had came to conclucion that Me 262 pilots shot down appr. 150 a/c and lost appr. 100 Me 262s in air combat. Now I don’t claim that Price’s words are the ultimate truth, they are not that at least to me, but I doubt that he made a huge mistake. Anyway, he probably didn’t have accurate count on Soviet losses even if that is a possibility because early 90s was the time when access to Soviet military archives was easiest.

I recall that in Boehme’s G 7 book there was calculation of Me 262 claims but when I leafed my copy, the English translation, that didn’t catch my eyes but Richard T. Eger has counted from Boehme’s book that between Jan 1, 1945 and May 3, 1945 JG 7 scored 225 or 226 confirmed victories and 37 probables.

Soren
when Hitler cut Jumo's budget?

Juha

[Erich]

Juha yes that why I tried to point out about JG 7 kill-claims most likely in the 250 range including or maybe not the Soviet a/c shot down, things like this are almost unknown. I think upon further study Alfred Price has tired to correct some of the mis-givings he had but it is still tough with records not available to some degree
Welters kommando shot up at least 50 at night so to add to JG 7 right now we have roughly 300 kills, this is again not counting anything from Nowotny's small band nor JV 44 nor the KG (J) units, and the EJG.

Personally for the Me 262 in the entirety I could possibly believe 350-400 claims as being plausible, nothing more

E ~