Dora vs Tempest

[Erich]

Bill not enough to make one heck of a difference.........some of them were against Soviet A/C on the Ost front - JG 301 both the Russians and the US, JG 4 in the east, JG 3 of IVth gruppe in the east. JG 51 in the east. JG 300 - can't remember actually.

JG 2 fully equipped against US and RAF. JG 26 nearly fully equipped against the RAF and US, there were others in handfulls

[drgondog]

Erich - did the -12 and/or -13 actually enter combat ops (like the Ta 152H did either actually form a complete squadron?)

[Erich]

there were several yes I think 1-2 in the Würger staffel of JV 44, in JG 26 and another JG plus I think 2 test Kommando's.

nothing in numbers mind you.

Bill OT but still owe you the JG 300 stuff on Nov. 2nd 44, my allergies kicked in a month ago like something I have never had, I'm sicker than a stinkin wet dog and have no voice, maybe with the rain predicted this weekend I'll be up and around for it, right now it's lazin back with meds which totally freak my brain

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Erich

there were several yes I think 1-2 in the Würger staffel of JV 44, in JG 26 and another JG plus I think 2 test Kommando's.

nothing in numbers mind you.

Bill OT but still owe you the JG 300 stuff on Nov. 2nd 44, my allergies kicked in a month ago like something I have never had, I'm sicker than a stinkin wet dog and have no voice, maybe with the rain predicted this weekend I'll be up and around for it, right now it's lazin back with meds which totally freak my brain

Don't sweat it E.. just want to close loop w/Cullerton when we can.

PS - we are going to have an AWESOME re-union in April 2008. The Association has changed its byLaws to automatically include the 355TFW CO on the board in perpetuity and they have been busting their butts at Davis Monthan.

On tap is a major firepower demo (day and night) at the Gila Bend Range with A-10s from 355 at DM and Red Flag F-15/F-16 and AC-130 from Nellis.

The young guys from the current and Gulf War 355 are so excited about a big turn out from WWII and Viet Nam vets - and vice versa. I am personally also looking forward to the A-10 simulator... so is my better half.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by drgondog

AC-130 from Nellis.

OT still, but you will love that! I got to see her in action and it was simply amazing. One of the most beautiful things I have seen.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

OT still, but you will love that! I got to see her in action and it was simply amazing. One of the most beautiful things I have seen.

LOL- If ever the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" was so true - it depends on your perspective if you happen to be the focus of 'attention'.. I saw the AC-47 and the early AC-130 in action - simply awesome

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by drgondog

LOL- If ever the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" was so true - it depends on your perspective if you happen to be the focus of 'attention'.. I saw the AC-47 and the early AC-130 in action - simply awesome

That is true. It is like a laser show from the heavens. Truely beautiful (from our perspective! )

[Airborne]

Well there were several variants of Tempest as well. Some powered with V form engines and some even with radials.
The one I saw at Hendon was a radial version.

[Jank]

I don't believe the Tempest II (radial engined variant) ever saw combat.

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Airborne

Well there were several variants of Tempest as well. Some powered with V form engines and some even with radials.
The one I saw at Hendon was a radial version.

In Hendon they also have a Tempest V with a Sabre H (not V) engine as well, I've put a picture of it in this thread http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/air...ndon-9876.html (My visit at the RAF museum in Hendon (London))

[Civettone]

Marcel, I went there last Sunday. Didn't get into the BoB hangar but nevertheless it was worth it! Good thing I didn't get off at Hendon itself.

Kris

[Kurfürst]

I can`t tell you for 1945, but I did a bit of Excell work on that based on available online transcriptions of the original strenght reports. Here`s what I have for December 1944.

1st December 1944 : Total 124 D-9s with the Tagjagd, 1 with Stab/JG2, 55 Doras with II./JG26, 68 Dora Nines with III./JG54.

During the month, they receive no less than 214 brand new D-9s; another five returns from repairs; 52 is lost to enemy action, 45 w/o enemy action, 7 to overhauls (or rather, leaves the unit and it`s adminstration).

By the end of December, 1944, the day before Bodenplatte, they report a total of 238 D-9s on hand. The major users operating on around full Gruppe- strenght (~40 ac each) are I./JG2 (3, III./JG2 (35), I./JG26 (49), II./JG26 (39), III./JG54 (49). II./JG301 has 18, Stab/JG2 has 4 ac. III./JG26 (1), Stab/JG27 (2), Stab/JG4 (1), Stab/JG26 (2) also operates a couple.

Quick and dirty job from excell database, so there may be some ommitments, errors etc, but it gives the roughly accurate idea. Of course it`s just what they happened to have at hand on a given day, and only the Tagjagd. And, no numerical data for 1945 (though units can be probably dig up for some months)

Which leaves me to believe, the greatest advantage of the FW 190 D-9 over the Tempest V was it`s sheer numbers and availability; it`s greatest disadvantage was the short training that far too many many of it`s pilots had.

BTW, Bill, you mentioned some G-6/AS data for unit strenghts around for 1944 you`ve seen (in some other recent thread).

Can I get a copy of, since the sources I use are unfortunately do not give much of an idea what is the exact subtype present with the unit (ie. G-5/AS evidenced by pictures are just reported as factory-fresh G-5s.. probably data plate not being stemped over in early conversions..?), and I`d like to establish what the subtype structure looked like in 1944, when so many aircraft were just converted/updated/modernized from older airframes, and this leads to the above trouble with monthly strengh reports.. :/

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

I can`t tell you for 1945, but I did a bit of Excell work on that based on available online transcriptions of the original strenght reports. Here`s what I have for December 1944.

1st December 1944 : Total 124 D-9s with the Tagjagd, 1 with Stab/JG2, 55 Doras with II./JG26, 68 Dora Nines with III./JG54.

During the month, they receive no less than 214 brand new D-9s; another five returns from repairs; 52 is lost to enemy action, 45 w/o enemy action, 7 to overhauls (or rather, leaves the unit and it`s adminstration).

By the end of December, 1944, the day before Bodenplatte, they report a total of 238 D-9s on hand. The major users operating on around full Gruppe- strenght (~40 ac each) are I./JG2 (3, III./JG2 (35), I./JG26 (49), II./JG26 (39), III./JG54 (49). II./JG301 has 18, Stab/JG2 has 4 ac. III./JG26 (1), Stab/JG27 (2), Stab/JG4 (1), Stab/JG26 (2) also operates a couple.

Thx for this. Do you have any idea what other JG that had some Fw 109D's was engaged N. Koln in Munster area on 14 January? I know of III/JG 26 but that was Koln and south vs 78FG

BTW, Bill, you mentioned some G-6/AS data for unit strenghts around for 1944 you`ve seen (in some other recent thread).

I just dumped it in the Corsair vs Fw and Me thread for you - as well as the flight test data for the X-P51G

Can I get a copy of, since the sources I use are unfortunately do not give much of an idea what is the exact subtype present with the unit (ie. G-5/AS evidenced by pictures are just reported as factory-fresh G-5s.. probably data plate not being stemped over in early conversions..?), and I`d like to establish what the subtype structure looked like in 1944, when so many aircraft were just converted/updated/modernized from older airframes, and this leads to the above trouble with monthly strengh reports.. :/

Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, Jagdverbände

I have used the TO&E source to look at what types of 109s were dominant in LuftFlotte Reich including JG3, III/26 (several occcasions), JG5, JG27 and JG53 and JG301 in the March-May 1944 timeframe. Let me know whether you think they are representative?

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Civettone

Marcel, I went there last Sunday. Didn't get into the BoB hangar but nevertheless it was worth it! Good thing I didn't get off at Hendon itself.

Kris

Yeah that would have been a long walk Glad you had a good time Kris!

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, Jagdverbände

I have used the TO&E source to look at what types of 109s were dominant in LuftFlotte Reich including JG3, III/26 (several occcasions), JG5, JG27 and JG53 and JG301 in the March-May 1944 timeframe. Let me know whether you think they are representative?

It`s an excellent resource IMHO, but a word of warning : I`ve noticed especially about the first six months of 1944 that the subtypes are not always 100% accurate.

Thinking about conversions and rebuilds here.. for example the first G-5/6/AS are reported on those TOEs (rather, equipment 'movement' reports) list in June/July the earliest IIRC (which I why I was surprised when you said somewhere you saw /AS aircraft in the spring - which unit..? ). Hhowever it is certain that the first lucky units had them as early as March/April 1944 already.

For example, it is evidenced byKnoke`s diary and some photographs of his CO`s aircraft which is clearly a G-5/AS or G-6/AS with methanol boost (AS cowling + Red legs clearly visible, date of photo certain because he received some award which`s date is known, Knoke mentions the same in his diary).. here`s the beast :



The unit strenght returns of ww2.dk however only lists ordinary Neubau G-5s arriving... no /AS, nothing.

I presume they reported dataplates and serial numbers, which, for some early conversions, may have not been stamped over in the factory, and on paper those aircraft were still 'G-5's and 'G-6's, or the designation was just not yet standard etc. And, most /AS aircraft until mid-1944 were conversions... same about MW-50. No clue in the Bewegungsmeldungen which aircraft have these... the precise subtypes are obviously not listed in many cases, which as I said, probably a result of the conversion, not to mention there was no clear designation for the aircraft with MW-50 initially (unofficial things like G-6/MW and the like appearing sometimes..).

For this reason, the exact type structure are difficult to arrive at for early 1944, but it seemed to it`s specific thing to that period, which can be explained by large number of conversions, and interim designations suddenly appearing.