f6f-5 vs 109 - Page 8 - Aircraft of World War II

Soundbreaker Welch? · 01-15-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Dave Southwood:
"One interesting feature is the leading edge slats. When these deploy at low speeds or in a turn, a 'clunk' can be heard and felt, but there is no disturbance to the aircraft about any axis. I understand that the Bf109E rolled violently as the slats deployed, and I am curious to know the difference to the Gustav that caused this."

That still is a flaw in the 109. A novice German pilot who hears a clunk when his slats deploy, or is suddenly forced to roll his plane when the slats come out; the experience might well disorient him and make him lose vital concentration in a fight, even enough to be shot down by a following enemy fighter, or even have his plane go into a stall.

I haven't heard of many WWII fighter planes that had this problem. They did have other problems, such as the Spitfire being forced to dive upside down. But even a flaw like that, once you know about it, is not so jarring as slats that function poorly.

drgondog · 01-15-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juha

Hello Soren
the Flugzeug-Entwicklung-Blatt Bf 109 20.8.1944 gives landing speed for G-5, G-6 and G-6 AS (G-14) as 170kmh.

Hello Drgondog
in fact it is only interpolation from the Kennblatt für das Flugzeugmuster Bf 109 F-1 und F-2 page 6, which gave landing speed as 140kmh IAS (150 kmh TAS) at 2700kg. Max speed at SL is given with 1,3 ata as 495 kmh TAS /487 kmh IAS.

Juha

ADDITION: Drgondog, if you want the TAS vs IAS for 109F-1, -2 at a certain altitude, I can check the info for You.

Thx Juha, don't go to that trouble - I was just confused when I noted the difference between IAS (instrument) and TAS (actual) at presumably low altitude where both should have been same with well calibrated instruments?

Juha · 01-15-2009, 05:36 PM

Hello Drgondog
a bit odd I admit but Germans maybe thought that the rather small difference between TAS and IAS, probably from position error or whatever in English, didn't matter in a single-seat fighter. LW single seat fighter pilots were not instrument trained anyway and probably didn't care were the true max speed of their kites at zero feet 495 or 487 kmh, what was important was were their a/c faster or slower than enemy a/c.

Juha

Juha · 01-15-2009, 05:44 PM

Hello Soundbreaker Welch
I don't know, a docile stall was a big plus. If a/c had a harsh high speed stall it would inhibite less experienced or less good pilots to fly to limit in fear of stalling, especially at low level or stalling at altitude where they crashed but where a Bf 109 pilot would have had time to get the situation in hand.

Juha

drgondog · 01-15-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juha

Hello Drgondog
a bit odd I admit but Germans maybe thought that the rather small difference between TAS and IAS, probably from position error or whatever in English, didn't matter in a single-seat fighter. LW single seat fighter pilots were not instrument trained anyway and probably didn't care were the true max speed of their kites at zero feet 495 or 487 kmh, what was important was were their a/c faster or slower than enemy a/c.

Juha

No, but flying on instrument on final approach i would not want to be confused. Fortunately TAS higher than IAS - lol.

Soren · 01-20-2009, 02:36 PM

I got the landing speeds on all German a/c, and the 109G6 it is 145 km/h and the K-4 150 km/h. The Ta-152H-1's is 155 km/h, the Fw-190 D-9's is 167 km/h, and the Fw-190 A-8's is 175 km/h.

I think you've been looking at the turn around speeds right before final approach Juha, cause that is 170 km/h for the Gusrav series.

Juha · 01-20-2009, 04:19 PM

Hello Soren
no, I gave my sources, check them. and FAF Pilot's Notes for G6 gave 180 kmh when coming over the a/f boundary.

Juha

ADDITION. At least partly the different figures might come from that FAF landing speed might be for a plane which still had full ammo on board and maybe a little more fuel also while German figures might be for an a/c with all ammo used and with almost empty tank. Flugzeug-Entwicklung-Blatt Bf 109 20.8.1944 gives landing speed at flying weight, which isn’t given. But in that case FAF figures and that from Flugzeug-Entwicklung-Blatt Bf 109 20.8.1944 are more relevant to Brown’s case because if one studies stall speed while trying to figure out how good opponent the fighter is, the stalling speed at combat weight is the important one.

delcyros · 01-20-2009, 05:01 PM

180 Km/h over airfield boundary and 145 Km/h landing speed do match well together.
You always are faster during the approach for safety reasons. It´s better to have excess speed to allow some margin of maneuvering without the fear of a stall.
I have seen approach speed suggestions in excess of 200 Km/h for the Fw-190A, too.

Juha · 01-20-2009, 05:44 PM

Hello Delcyros
as i wrote earlier, the landing speed of 109 G6 according to the FAF Pilot's Notes for G6 was 160kmh. And Finnish airfields were usually small when compared to international standards.

Juha

Soren · 01-21-2009, 07:24 PM

Well I'm sorry Juha but your claims just go against all MTT & Rechlin docs I have. Would you care to share that document you claim mentions a 170 km/h landing speed though ?

At any rate the landing speed for the Gustav series was 145 km/h, the approach speed being 170 km/h. The landing speed of the Bf-109K-4 was 150 km/h with the approach speed being 175 km/h.

Infact to sum it up:

WW2 fighter a/c landing & approach speeds
Bf-109G: 145 km/h & 170 km/h
Bf-109K: 150 km/h & 175 km/h
Spitfire XIV: 145 km/h & 170 km/h
Ta-152H: 155 km/h & 180 km/h
Me-262A-1a: 180 km/h & 220 km/h
Fw-190A: 175 km/h & 200 km/h
Fw-190D: 167 km/h & 195 km/h
P-51D: 175 km/h & 208 km/h
P-47D: 180 km/h & 210 km/h

Glider · 01-21-2009, 11:36 PM

Surely for all practical purposes, the landing speed is in fact the approach speed. Try approaching at the lower 'touchdown' speed and the result is likely to be one hole in the ground.

drgondog · 01-22-2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

Well I'm sorry Juha but your claims just go against all MTT & Rechlin docs I have. Would you care to share that document you claim mentions a 170 km/h landing speed though ?

At any rate the landing speed for the Gustav series was 145 km/h, the approach speed being 170 km/h. The landing speed of the Bf-109K-4 was 150 km/h with the approach speed being 175 km/h.

Infact to sum it up:

WW2 fighter a/c landing & approach speeds
Bf-109G: 145 km/h & 170 km/h
Bf-109K: 150 km/h & 175 km/h
Spitfire XIV: 145 km/h & 170 km/h
Ta-152H: 155 km/h & 180 km/h
Me-262A-1a: 180 km/h & 220 km/h
Fw-190A: 175 km/h & 200 km/h
Fw-190D: 167 km/h & 195 km/h
P-51D: 175 km/h & 208 km/h
P-47D: 180 km/h & 210 km/h

Soren - all those are weight dependent - what are you using for weight assumptions (I assume landing flaps)..

drgondog · 01-22-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glider

Surely for all practical purposes, the landing speed is in fact the approach speed. Try approaching at the lower 'touchdown' speed and the result is likely to be one hole in the ground.

Glider , for the only one I have personal experience in flying the 51D is pretty much correct. The book has 105mph for 'over the fence' and I usually did mine at 110 - turning into final I was around 130+ which also close to Soren's figures - all around 8500 pounds.

It would be higher with a full fuel load.

Juha · 01-22-2009, 02:56 PM

Hello Soren and all others
I cannot remember from where I got/downloaded the Flugzeug-Entwicklungs-Blatt Bf 109, I took a quick look on Kurfürst’s site but didn’t notice it there. It might be there or I downloaded it from another site in Autumn 2006. Because I cannot give the credit to right person I would not share it here. It might be one of those documents which were given to me on condition that I’ll not circulate them without permission and I don’t have time to go through my correspondence now. The 170kmh is the value of VLande.

But on the other hand the English translation of the FAF Pilots Notes for 109G6 can be find here virtualpilots.fi: Tervetuloa Virtuaalilentjt - Virtual Pilots ry:n www-sivuille
It doesn’t jump out there at first blick, at least it took me a short while to find it today, but it is on that site. Probably it’s location on the site is deliberate, so I’ll not give the full URL and hope that those who looked it respect its conditions of use. And the PN is well worth of little effort to all who are interested in Bf 109, so at least for most of us. While I looked the docu I noticed that there are much material that You have used here so You probably know the site already.

Juha

Juha · 01-23-2009, 07:29 AM

Hello
so the docu gives VLande as 170kmh and doesn’t give at which weight. I looked the docu again and the weight in question is simply the weight at which the landing speed is 170kmh and if You look the Kennblatt for Bf 109 F1, F2 , it gives Landegeschwindigkeit at 2700kg as 140 kmh IAS, 150 kmh TAS. For 109 F-4 we have info from its Kennblat that its landing speed at 2560kg was 135kmh (IAS or TAS). Also at least Kennblatt for G-1 in its table of max speeds at different altitudes gave info that for it at sea level IAS=TAS. And at least the Finnish translation of Messerschmitt AG’s Flight and Maintenance Manual for 109G2 from March 1943, which happened to be the lightest or with G-4 one of the two lightest models of G-series, clearly states that approach speed for G-2 was 180 kmh but doesn’t give the info at what weight.

Those facts IMHO indicates that Brown's info that combat loaded 109 G-6 stalled at 105mph (169kmh) all up isn't unreasonable, especially if the plane was still had its cannongondoles as his speedinfo indicates.

Juha

View Poll Results: who would win
f6fs ripp most the 109s in two	34	41.98%
109s kill most off	39	48.15%
nothing	3	3.70%
other	5	6.17%
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01-20-2009, 02:36 PM	#111
Soren Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,625	I got the landing speeds on all German a/c, and the 109G6 it is 145 km/h and the K-4 150 km/h. The Ta-152H-1's is 155 km/h, the Fw-190 D-9's is 167 km/h, and the Fw-190 A-8's is 175 km/h. I think you've been looking at the turn around speeds right before final approach Juha, cause that is 170 km/h for the Gusrav series. Last edited by Soren; 01-20-2009 at 02:40 PM.

01-20-2009, 04:19 PM	#112
Juha Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Helsinki Posts: 1,560	Hello Soren no, I gave my sources, check them. and FAF Pilot's Notes for G6 gave 180 kmh when coming over the a/f boundary. Juha ADDITION. At least partly the different figures might come from that FAF landing speed might be for a plane which still had full ammo on board and maybe a little more fuel also while German figures might be for an a/c with all ammo used and with almost empty tank. Flugzeug-Entwicklung-Blatt Bf 109 20.8.1944 gives landing speed at flying weight, which isn’t given. But in that case FAF figures and that from Flugzeug-Entwicklung-Blatt Bf 109 20.8.1944 are more relevant to Brown’s case because if one studies stall speed while trying to figure out how good opponent the fighter is, the stalling speed at combat weight is the important one. Last edited by Juha; 01-20-2009 at 04:52 PM.

01-20-2009, 05:01 PM	#113
delcyros Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg) Posts: 1,753	180 Km/h over airfield boundary and 145 Km/h landing speed do match well together. You always are faster during the approach for safety reasons. It´s better to have excess speed to allow some margin of maneuvering without the fear of a stall. I have seen approach speed suggestions in excess of 200 Km/h for the Fw-190A, too. __________________ ---delcyros---

01-21-2009, 07:24 PM	#115
Soren Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,625	Well I'm sorry Juha but your claims just go against all MTT & Rechlin docs I have. Would you care to share that document you claim mentions a 170 km/h landing speed though ? At any rate the landing speed for the Gustav series was 145 km/h, the approach speed being 170 km/h. The landing speed of the Bf-109K-4 was 150 km/h with the approach speed being 175 km/h. Infact to sum it up: WW2 fighter a/c landing & approach speeds Bf-109G: 145 km/h & 170 km/h Bf-109K: 150 km/h & 175 km/h Spitfire XIV: 145 km/h & 170 km/h Ta-152H: 155 km/h & 180 km/h Me-262A-1a: 180 km/h & 220 km/h Fw-190A: 175 km/h & 200 km/h Fw-190D: 167 km/h & 195 km/h P-51D: 175 km/h & 208 km/h P-47D: 180 km/h & 210 km/h Last edited by Soren; 01-21-2009 at 07:33 PM.

01-15-2009, 05:36 PM	#108
Juha Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Helsinki Posts: 1,560	Hello Drgondog a bit odd I admit but Germans maybe thought that the rather small difference between TAS and IAS, probably from position error or whatever in English, didn't matter in a single-seat fighter. LW single seat fighter pilots were not instrument trained anyway and probably didn't care were the true max speed of their kites at zero feet 495 or 487 kmh, what was important was were their a/c faster or slower than enemy a/c. Juha

01-15-2009, 05:44 PM	#109
Juha Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Helsinki Posts: 1,560	Hello Soundbreaker Welch I don't know, a docile stall was a big plus. If a/c had a harsh high speed stall it would inhibite less experienced or less good pilots to fly to limit in fear of stalling, especially at low level or stalling at altitude where they crashed but where a Bf 109 pilot would have had time to get the situation in hand. Juha

01-20-2009, 05:44 PM	#114
Juha Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Helsinki Posts: 1,560	Hello Delcyros as i wrote earlier, the landing speed of 109 G6 according to the FAF Pilot's Notes for G6 was 160kmh. And Finnish airfields were usually small when compared to international standards. Juha

01-21-2009, 11:36 PM	#116
Glider Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London Posts: 3,907	Surely for all practical purposes, the landing speed is in fact the approach speed. Try approaching at the lower 'touchdown' speed and the result is likely to be one hole in the ground.

01-22-2009, 02:56 PM	#119
Juha Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Helsinki Posts: 1,560	Hello Soren and all others I cannot remember from where I got/downloaded the Flugzeug-Entwicklungs-Blatt Bf 109, I took a quick look on Kurfürst’s site but didn’t notice it there. It might be there or I downloaded it from another site in Autumn 2006. Because I cannot give the credit to right person I would not share it here. It might be one of those documents which were given to me on condition that I’ll not circulate them without permission and I don’t have time to go through my correspondence now. The 170kmh is the value of VLande. But on the other hand the English translation of the FAF Pilots Notes for 109G6 can be find here virtualpilots.fi: Tervetuloa Virtuaalilentjt - Virtual Pilots ry:n www-sivuille It doesn’t jump out there at first blick, at least it took me a short while to find it today, but it is on that site. Probably it’s location on the site is deliberate, so I’ll not give the full URL and hope that those who looked it respect its conditions of use. And the PN is well worth of little effort to all who are interested in Bf 109, so at least for most of us. While I looked the docu I noticed that there are much material that You have used here so You probably know the site already. Juha Last edited by Juha; 01-22-2009 at 03:00 PM.

01-23-2009, 07:29 AM	#120
Juha Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Helsinki Posts: 1,560	Hello so the docu gives VLande as 170kmh and doesn’t give at which weight. I looked the docu again and the weight in question is simply the weight at which the landing speed is 170kmh and if You look the Kennblatt for Bf 109 F1, F2 , it gives Landegeschwindigkeit at 2700kg as 140 kmh IAS, 150 kmh TAS. For 109 F-4 we have info from its Kennblat that its landing speed at 2560kg was 135kmh (IAS or TAS). Also at least Kennblatt for G-1 in its table of max speeds at different altitudes gave info that for it at sea level IAS=TAS. And at least the Finnish translation of Messerschmitt AG’s Flight and Maintenance Manual for 109G2 from March 1943, which happened to be the lightest or with G-4 one of the two lightest models of G-series, clearly states that approach speed for G-2 was 180 kmh but doesn’t give the info at what weight. Those facts IMHO indicates that Brown's info that combat loaded 109 G-6 stalled at 105mph (169kmh) all up isn't unreasonable, especially if the plane was still had its cannongondoles as his speedinfo indicates. Juha

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