Favorite fighter/interceptor?

[renrich]

According to my source the fastest US fighter at sea level was the F4u4. 380 mph. We know it was a formidable kamikaze interceptor as that AC was what the Navy loaded up with near the end when the kamikazes predominated. If it were eligible the F8F would have been a star because of it's high speed and rate of climb.

[Soren]

The FW-190 Dora is definitely one of the best performing a/c at 0 to 10,000 ft, with a SL top speed of 382.5 mph and 4,430 ft/min climb rate.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Soren

The FW-190 Dora is definitely one of the best performing a/c at 0 to 10,000 ft, with a SL top speed of 382.5 mph and 4,430 ft/min climb rate.

How does that compare with a Typhoon or The F4U?

What other aircraft were there in 1941 or 1942 that specialized or excelled in low-level ops?
(I know about the clipped wing Spit's, I wonder if there were others)

[Soren]

The FW-190 Dora is slightly faster and climbs slightly faster than the F4U-4. The same applies against the Tempest. (The Typhoon is too slow for comparison)

In 1941-42 the FW-190A is unrivalled in terms low alt performance.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Soren

The FW-190 Dora is slightly faster and climbs slightly faster than the F4U-4. The same applies against the Tempest. (The Typhoon is too slow for comparison)

In 1941-42 the FW-190A is unrivalled in terms low alt performance.

I thought the Typhoon was in the high 300's when close to sea level?

[Soren]

The Typhoon had a max speed of 342 mph at SL in 1942. In 1943 it seems to have moved on to 352 mph.

[renrich]

At sea level in 1942 the F4U1 was the fastest of all US fighters at about 350 mph. At 5000 feet the Allison Mustang took over getting up to 390 mph before it's supercharger gave out. Late in the war another good low altitude performer was the P63.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by renrich

According to my source the fastest US fighter at sea level was the F4u4. 380 mph. We know it was a formidable kamikaze interceptor as that AC was what the Navy loaded up with near the end when the kamikazes predominated. If it were eligible the F8F would have been a star because of it's high speed and rate of climb.

The 51H at full combat load, no external tanks, was flight tested at 401mph at SL with climb rate of 4700fpm from SL to 2200 feet. North American tests in mid 1945 had it at 410 mph at SL and 5100fpm max climb rate - but I haven't been able to find my files on that.

It was in production and in operational squadrons in March so only lagged the Ta 152 by a couple of months, depending on whether you think either the H-0 or H-1 was a production quality fighter

BTW - on the D-9 here is what Caldwell had from the III./JG54 pilots in December

Donald Caldwell wrote of the FW 190 D-9’s operational debut in his The JG 26 War Diary Volume Two 1943-1945i (pages 388 – 399):

17 December: The Second Gruppe pilots returned to the front and their new base at Nördhorn-Clausheide in seventy-four Fw 190D-9s, their numbers bolstered by twenty brand-new pilots. The pilot’s opinions of the “long-nosed Dora”, or Dora-9, as it was variously nicknamed, were mixed. The new model was intended to correct the Fw 190’s most glaring weakness, its poor high altitude performance. What came out of Kurt Tank’s shop was a compromise. Tank did not like the liquid-cooled Jumo 213A engine, but it was the best choice available. The long in-line engine had to be balanced by a lengthened rear fuselage to maintain the proper center of gravity, making the Fw 190D four feet longer than the Fw 190A. The new airplane lacked the high turn rate and incredible rate of roll of its close-coupled radial-engined predecessor. It was a bit faster, The however, with a maximum speed of 680 km/h (422 mph) at 6600 meters (21,650 feet).Its 2240 horespower with methanol-water injection (MW 50) gave it an excellent acceleration in combat situations. It also climbed and dived more rapidly than the Fw 190A, and so proved well suited to the dive-and-zoom ambush tactics favored by the Schlageter pilots. Many of the early models were not equipped with tanks for methanol, which was in very short supply in any event. At low altitude, the top speed and acceleration of these examples were inferior to those of Allied fighters. Hans Hartigs recalled that only one of the first batch of Dora-9s received by the First Gruppe had methanol-water injection, and the rest had a top speed of only 590 km/h (360 mph).

18 December: The First Gruppe reported a strength of 52 190As and 28 Fw 190 D-9’s… The Second Gruppe flew its first mission in its Dora-9s, but failed to contact the enemy.

23 December: The Second Gruppe flew its first Fw 190D-9 mission.

24 December: The first combat mission for the new Fw 190 D-9s of the First Gruppe was an attempted interception of the heavy bombers.

25 December: The First Gruppe reported in the morning that only nine of its Focke-Wulfs were serviceable. The Stab and the 2nd and 3rd Staffeln were taken off operations to train in the Fw 190 D-9.

III/JG 54 returned to the combat zone, still led by Hptm. Robert Weiss, a member of JG 26 back in the glory day on the Kanalfront. […] The unit had been built up to its full strength of sixty-eight FW 190D-9s.

26 December: The biggest news the returning pilots had for their comrades was the Mustang’s superiority in speed and acceleration to their Dora 9s.
27 December: Despite its long absence from the front for training, there were still doubts as to the combat-worthiness of III/JG 54. Today a familiarization flight over Münster basin was ordered for all four of the Staffeln. […] III/JG 54 lost five aircraft destroyed and one damaged; three pilots were killed and two were injured.

29 December: The First Gruppe stood down to conduct intensive training in their Fw 190D-9s; 120 flights were made... The Green Hearts were fully engaged today; this would go down in the history of III/JG 54 as its schwarze Tag (black day).


No editorial comment on the Dora but it points out the difference between flight test results and operations results

[renrich]

Would it not be true that operational performance would always lag behind the performance predicted by the manufacturer? My graphs show that the P63A was the fastest sealevel AAF fighter at about 375 mph, with the P51D coming in at about 368 mph and the P51B being a shade faster. The P51H is not shown. I don't have any performance data on the F8F except that Linnekin in "80 Knots to Mach II" states that the Bearcat, especially the F8F1, were honest 440-450 mph aircraft at low altitudes and he states that a milestone Bearcat performnce record was from a standing start on the runway to 10000 feet was done in approx a minute and a half. He also talks of staying with a Vampire on the deck. I wonder what happened to the P51H as far as warbirds and air racing are concerned. I believe a heavily modified Bearcat holds the piston engine speed record. One would think an H model Mustang would be a candidate for that. Looking at the speeds these modified warbird air racers achieve, makes me wonder about all the performance numbers we see quoted on production WW2 fighters.

[Soren]

I am puzzled by that article Bill and find it very suspect, esp. since every FW190 pilot having flown both types (Including all the test-pilots) make it very clear that the Dora-9 turned & climbed allot better than any version of the Anton and was much faster as-well, an improvement which was very much appreciated by the frontline units who gave similar praise and told how they now comfortably could stay and fight the Mustang at high altitude.

Furthermore in actual comparative tests the Dora-9 out-turned, out-climbed and out-accelerated the A-8 easily according to the test pilots. Anything else would also be wierd as by looking at the aerodynamics the Dora-9 clearly has the advantage.

In short, Caldwell is talking trash and knows nothing of what he's talking about as all the vets, experts & physics tell a much different story from the one told by Caldwell in that article.

This is ofcourse not your fault Bill, I'm just letting you know that the article is pure BS.

PS: Note how the figures are screwed up as-well, using the 2,240 HP figure.

[Soren]

Now regarding the Ta-152H-1.

Well the quality of the airframe was reportedly very good, the engine was actually the only real problem bogging the unit.

The max climb rate of the Ta-152H-1 was 5,500 + ft/min, 10 km being reached in just 10.1 min. Top SL speed was 585 - 597 km/h, and top speed at alt was 755 - 760 km/h. Service ceiling was 15.1 km.

Some Ta-152 pilots claim to have reached 500 mph in straight flight at high alt using GM-1, something which would be very impressive. The company never tested top speed that high up so we can't know for sure wether the pilots were actually flying that fast or the automatic IAS to TAS converter worked properly at that speed & alt.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Soren

I am puzzled by that article Bill and find it very suspect, esp. since every FW190 pilot having flown both types (Including all the test-pilots) make it very clear that the Dora-9 turned & climbed allot better than any version of the Anton and was much faster as-well, an improvement which was very much appreciated by the frontline units who gave similar praise and told how they now comfortably could stay and fight the Mustang at high altitude.

Furthermore in actual comparative tests the Dora-9 out-turned, out-climbed and out-accelerated the A-8 easily according to the test pilots. Anything else would also be wierd as by looking at the aerodynamics the Dora-9 clearly has the advantage.

In short, Caldwell is talking trash and knows nothing of what he's talking about as all the vets, experts & physics tell a much different story from the one told by Caldwell in that article.

This is ofcourse not your fault Bill, I'm just letting you know that the article is pure BS.

PS: Note how the figures are screwed up as-well, using the 2,240 HP figure.

Dismissing Caldwell's recount of interviews and recollections of the JG26 pilots he worked with for so many years is not so simple as 'dismissal'. He was and remains pretty well trusted by the JG26 pilots.

I don't recall ever hearing a storm of protest by the JG26 community over his books or recollections presented. And, at the end of the day, he wasn't attacking the Dora, simply relating diary discussions from III./JG26 and JG54.

My father's recollection of the one he flew post war was that it (190D) was faster than the two seat trainer version he flew prior to the 190D (and he didn't recall which version Dora but thought it was a -9), but the trainer did outroll the D. I don't recall any real discussion about turn except a general impression they all turned about the same.

Having said that, he can't be considered an expert on the Fw 190A (two seater) or Dora or 109 two seater with a total of about 25 hours

But, at the end of the day, absent actual documented flight tests that everyone agreed had no agenda (RAF perhaps comparing aagainst Spit, etc, etc) what do we really know about experiences derived from combat recollections other than the survivor lived to have a POV? The encounter reports of the 355th pilots that shot down 190Ds didn't cite any notable problems - but what does that say, really.

I saw some translated flight test data from German Flight tests on Mike Williams site for a variety of tests - are they inaccurate in your opinion?

FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Having said that, he can't be considered an expert on the Fw 190A (two seater) or Dora or 109 two seater with a total of about 25 hours



FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials

He was probably more expert them a lot of the guys that flew in the latter part of the war

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

He was probably more expert them a lot of the guys that flew in the latter part of the war

Well, you're right. He had ~ 2200 hours before those flights in July-Sept 1945 so it wasn't like he wouldn't know when a stall was coming, etc. In the process of flying different Fws, he would fly one of them against a 51D and beat it, then fly the 51D and beat the other guy.

He was trying to get a ride in the Me 262, but rotated back to US before he had a chance. He regretted never flying that or the Spitfire or a Ta 152.

His favorite ship of all time was the F-86E/F, then Mustang.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by drgondog

Well, you're right. He had ~ 2200 hours before those flights in July-Sept 1945 so it wasn't like he wouldn't know when a stall was coming, etc. In the process of flying different Fws, he would fly one of them against a 51D and beat it, then fly the 51D and beat the other guy.

He was trying to get a ride in the Me 262, but rotated back to US before he had a chance. He regretted never flying that or the Spitfire or a Ta 152.

His favorite ship of all time was the F-86E/F, then Mustang.

used to have the odd beer with a 416 Spit guy that flew the 262 at the end of the war . Unfortunately he never talked about flying