Germany's Greatest General

[Njaco]

ok, so I gotta come up with a better poll and not something so obvious!

[Hollywood]

Karl Doenitz is worth mentioning eh?

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Hollywood

Karl Doenitz is worth mentioning eh?

He was an Admiral...

But considering that Kesselring was only a Luftwaffe guy he did pretty damn good with defensive ground troops.

[Njaco]

I would accept Doenitz as he was head of his department. Wasn't Raeder better?

[Desert Fox]

Rommel, definitely. He was a true general, his head wasn't addled with ideaologies and he wasn't hellbent on persecuting those who didn't fit in.
Guderian was also a great general, he led the way in tank warfare theory and practice in my view

[dcasuta]

Guderian I think ... he was the mastermind. Rommel was the best in the 2nd wave of new generals. I voted the mentor.
Third is not a heavy choise...Manstein.
Smiling Albert - verry verry good general - no.4.
von Rundstedt - no.5 (great great granddaddy...)

[Konigstiger205]

Finally I'm not the only Romanian on this forum ...welcome dcasuta!Sorry guys for posting off topic here but I had to .

[The Basket]

Kesselring and Manstein.

Kesselring was an army officer before he became Luftwaffe.

Doenitz was an Admiral and then Grand Admiral and finally head of state. Then war criminal, prisoner and Finally West German citizen. So he was the top ranking officer of the war!

Rommel was not the best as he was too reckless. Kesselring was the most rounded and gifted.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by The Basket

Rommel was not the best as he was too reckless.

How was Rommel too reckless?

[plan_D]

Heinz Guderian would be my obvious rank #1 because he created the mobile warfare that Rommel is so famous for. Guderian also commanded the victory in Poland and northern France; Rommel was under Guderian during Fall Gelb and it was Guderian who kept ordering all his units to keep pushing forward - often putting himself at risk in all his operations. Guderian also drove the Wehrmachts panzers to the gates of Moscow through Smolensk. Rommels fame comes from North Africa where armoured warfare can be practised in perfect conditions; there is always an open flank. Guderian fought tougher opponents and commanded larger forces.

However, I'm not going to put Guderian as the greatest. Instead I choose General der Panzertruppe H.Balck as the greatest German general of World War II and Guderian would agree. Guderian described Balck as the most gifted armour commander he had ever met.

Balck started the war as commander of Schutzen Regiment.1 (Rifle Regiment)/1.Panzer Division. He fought in the Battle of France and it was he who led the vanguard of German forces across the Meuse at Sedan. Upon crossing the river Meuse on the 13th of May; Balck decided to enlarge the bridgehead himself without support from anti-tank guns, armour or artillery. On the night of 13/14th May Balck force marched his exhausted troops six miles south to the town of Cheméry which was occupied without a fight. The morning brought a French armoured counter-attack but the enlargement of the bridgehead by Balck made the battlefield open; the French were repulsed as the 1st Panzer brigade arrived with armour and anti-tank guns. A plus note for Guderian is that he was up at the front during the battle and was able to be consulted by Balck in person.

Balck changed commands to Panzer Regiment.3/2.Panzer Division for the Battle of Greece. In this command Balck led the left battle group (Panzer Regiment.3; Schutzen Regiment.304; II.Motorcycle Battalion plus supporting engineer company) of 2.Panzer Division during the Battle of Mount Olympus.

On the 15th April Balcks' forces were pinned down by 21.Battalion/2nd New Zealand Division and supporting artillery. The New Zealanders had not been given anti-tank guns because the terrain was considered impassable to armour. Balck ordered his armour to open fire upon the New Zealanders positions while his II.Motorcycle Battalion made a wide flanking move on the 21.Battalions' left, on foot. The II.Battalion/Schutzen Regiment.304 followed with a larger flanking movement on to the sides of Mt. Olympus; the terrain was difficult even for foot soldiers and was left largely unguarded by the New Zealanders. Balck left only his engineers to guard his armour and artillery while his infantry made the night march around the New Zealand positions.

On the morning of 16th April the New Zealanders began to withdraw. The II.Motorcycle Battalion had struck at their left while the II.Battalion/Schutzen Regiment.304 had move to the rear. Upon seeing the withdrawal, Balck ordered an advance by his armour regardless of terrain. The pursuit did not last long as the infantry was exhausted and the terrain did become hazardous for armour.

By noon on the 17th of April Balck had reached the Tempe Gorge; a sharp sided gorge with the river Pinios running through the centre. On the northern bank of the river was a railway and on the southern bank was a road leading to Larissa which was the target of 2nd Panzer Division. The Australian 16.Brigade had the western entrance of Tempe Gorge covered and were the last line of defence before Larissa.

Balck sent his armour down the railway at a slow pace towards Larissa. The movement was soon halted by the destruction of a tunnel by the Commonwealth forces. Luckily for Balck there was a split in the Pinios river with an island in the middle which was close enough for his armour to reach under their own power. Balck risked the crossing with one tank which made it; this was followed by two more successfully. The crossing was dangerous and took anywhere between thirty minutes to a hour for each tank but Balck pressed on. The first three tanks moved down the road and chased off an Australian demolition party. Through the night of 17/18th April Balcks Schutzen Regiment.304 repaired the road under heavy artillery bombardment.

Some tanks were lost in the crossing but enough got over with four artillery pieces towed by tractors; no wheeled vehicles could make it. On the afternoon of 18th April Balck assembled a panzer battalion and schutzen battalion for the attack on the Australian positions.

On the afternoon of the 18th Balck broke through the western entrance to the gorge and reached open country. The Australian 16.Brigade under pressure from the German mountain troops on Mt.Olympus and the right flank of 2.Panzer Division began to withdraw during the night of the 18th. Balck and his armour was the deciding factor as he raced over 'impassable' terrain to capture Larissa on the 19th of April.

A captured British message read: " The German Panzer Regiment 3 knows no going difficulties and negociates terrain which was regarded as absolutely safe against armour."

The official New Zealand pamphlet The Other Side of the Hill says of Balcks operations: "Seldom in war were tanks forced through such difficult country, or foot soldiers, already with over 500 kilometres marching behind them, pushed forward so rapidly under such punishing conditions; it was a record of which any soldier should be proud"

There's a lot more to Balcks career and I will continue at a later date...

[plan_D]

Balck was then made commander of 2.Panzer Brigade before being returned to staff duties in the Inspectorate of Armoured Forces OKH in July 1941.

In May 1942 Balck was placed in command of 11.Panzer Division under 48th Panzer Corps in Ukraine and southern Russia. The 11.Panzer Division became pivotal in the survival of the German forces in southern Russia in the winter of 1942/1943 when 6th Army was surrounded in Stalingrad.

On 6th December Balck arrived Nizhna Chirskaya on the river Chir to prepare for a crossing of the river Don to link up with Hoths' 4th Panzer Army and aid them in relieving Stalingrad. Covering the line of the Chir was 336th Infantry Division which held a line running from Nizhna Chirskaya to Surovikino. Also in 48th Panzer Corps was the Luftwaffe Field Division of limited ability.

Balck was never able to aid in the relief of Stalingrad; on the 7th December the Russian 1st Armoured Corps crossed the Chir and broke through 336th Divisions left flank and head for "State Farm 79" which was situated deep behind the German defensive line on the river and dangerously close to 336th Divisions HQ.

The 11.Panzer Division (Panzer Regiment.15; Panzer Grenadier Regiment.111; Panzer Grenadier Regiment.110) was still moving toward the front from Rostov when they were ordered to restore the situation at "State Farm 79". Panzer Regiment.15 met a the Russian armoured force in the afternoon of the 7th and stalled their advance. The German command knew that the Soviets could not remain in the area and Balck was ordered to remove them.
Balck set up his HQ in Verchne Solonovski (south-east of "State Farm 79") next to that of the 336th Division to enable close co-operation. Balck was asked by the 336th command to make a frontal assault on the Russian positions without delay. Balck made his position clear; he wanted to destroy the enemy, not push them away, a frontal assault was out of the question.

Balck planned to encircle the Russians by sending Panzer Regiment.15 with Panzer Grenadier Regiment.111 in support to the west and north while Panzer Grenadier Regiment.110 performed a holding attack from the south-west. Balck ordered his anti-aircraft guns and engineers to hold the south of the Russian positions to prevent them from breaking out. The 336th Divisions' artillery provided support for the north-east sector.

The 11.Panzer Division formed up on the night of 7th and attacked at dawn on the 8th. The attack came just as the Russians began to advance on the 336th rear. Panzer Regiment.15 caught a motorised infantry column by surprise that was coming from the north and completely destroyed it. The panzers then continued to the rear of "State Farm 79" and surrounded the 1st Armoured Corps. By the end of the day fifty-three Soviet tanks were left burning with little loss to the 11.Panzer Division. The Soviet attack had been blunted.

I will continue with the Chir River battles later...

[timshatz]

Plan D, your answer reminds me of the instructions from taking math tests in High school, "Show all work".

Good answer. You passed!

[SoD Stitch]

Originally Posted by Njaco

ok, so I gotta come up with a better poll and not something so obvious!

Okay, how about the worst German general of WWII? I know this one's a toughie, but I nominate Field Marshall Keitel, the ultimate example of a Nazi toady.

[merlin]

Is there a 'Western Front' bias here concerning Rommel?

To my mind, there is only one choice and he stands head & shoulders above the rest!! That man is Fritz Erich Lewinski - who, more commonly known by his adopted family name of von Manstein.

To quote Richard Brett-Smith book entitled 'Hitler's Generals'
"Of all the candidates for greatness, to my mind one man stands out, and that is Field-marshal Erich von Manstein. He would have been acceptable to every general on the Eastern Front as commander-in-chief with total responsibility, and he was well liked and thought of by the men who served under him. Further, von Manstein was that rara avis, a man who combined the genuine intellual equipment and precision of the goood staff officer with the authority, decisiveness and imaginative flair of the good field commander. He proved himself to the hilt in both capacities; and if he made some mistakes, they were, few and not irretrievable ones. Von Manstein was the greatest German general of the war, and probably the greatest of any participating nation"

My second would be Guderian, my third would be Kesselring, next would be Colonel-Genral Erich Hoepner - as Brett-Smith says "thought by some to be even better than Guderian or Hoth"!
Perhaps, Rommel could be fourth before Hoth - in view of his longer service.

[magnocain]

I have readf a book where Rommel ( yes, the Rommel ) was the 7th worst genral of WW2.