The Greatest Air Battle

[Erich]

it was the four fighter groups of the 8th AF that took it to JG 4 and JG 300 on 27 of September 44. IV.Sturm./JG 3 shot down 18 B-24's in their first pass and upon forming up again the Mustangs got into the action but JG 3 dove out and got down but still had 6 wounded pilots in their Fw 190A-8 Sturms from the bombers as they flew away

2 November 44 is another confusing day JG 4 and JG 3 claimed some 50 bombers but returned nearly the same amount of their machines as being shot down. I./Jg 300 was to be airborne as high cover but JG 3 109's came into land at their A/F and Bill's dad's fg the 355th fg followed close behind as the 109's of Jg 3 landed at Börkheide the 355th fg shot the place to pieces and destroyed some 32 I./Jg 300 Bf 109G's not to mention the 109's of JG 3 they ripped apart.

[Njaco]

Greatest in this context is only on a personal level. What each member feels is his personal favorite. I was just curious where everyone's tastes were, not so much as a litmus test to find the all time awesome battle. Just for discusion sake and some great points have been made.

I haven't even voted becuase I can't really choose yet. All the pilots in all those battles have my admiration because of the extraordinary situation they were put in.

[pbfoot]

I voted other but then the other was added to the poll hence no vote

[Njaco]

Sorry PB, but you made a good point and I wanted to include it.

[pbfoot]

Originally Posted by Njaco

Sorry PB, but you made a good point and I wanted to include it.

I'll live but it certainly was more intense IMHOP then anything in the Pacific

[Erich]

Njaco maybe you need to be more specific in your quest for the poll, what is deemed the greatest ? losses, kills, tactics, surprise, non-surprise, most meaningful in the long run of the month or year of the war ?

there seems to be too many favorable quantities here in my opinion

[Venganza]

I voted for the Battle of Midway because of how badly it crippled the Japanese Navy in such a short time (3 major carriers sunk in 10 minutes or so). It was the most important air battle in the Pacific in my opinion. In Europe, the argument might be made that the airwar during the battle of Kursk (Operation Zitadelle) was extremely important, as it helped turned back the last major offensive operation of the war for the Nazis (not excluding the Battle of the Bulge). The problem with the Kursk airwar is that it happened not over a few days but over a week and a half and the statistics, like so much else about the Eastern Front, seem to be fairly murky and subject to debate. It also involved relatively small tactical formations, not large strategic operations. Still, the Soviet attack aircraft, fighting their way through heavy Luftwaffe opposition, who had to contend with Soviet fighters, inflicted heavy casualties on the German armored units, in addition to suffering heavy losses themselves. As a matter of fact, if anyone has some relatively concrete numbers of the losses on both sides in the Kursk airwar, I'd like to see them.

[Njaco]

You're right Erich. I was trying to get an idea of what everyone thought was their favorite (and maybe that was the word I should have used) air battle and why they thought so. There is so much specific type of aircraft or campaign/theatre threads I was thinking that it would be interesting which single day (or small group of days) was outstanding in someones mind.

As an example:

The Hardest Day: 18 Aug 40 seemed to me a fascinating day of combat between the low level Dornier strike, the Stuka attacks, the use of balloons and how Fighter Command responded. A hard day for anyone to get through and I admire that.

Venganza, there is a recent thread that was discussing your exact questions.

[RabidAlien]

I have to stand and salute each and every pilot involved in each and every battle listed, as well as those not listed. I personally would have put either the Cactus Air Force or those brave pilots defending Wake Island with nothing more than ducttape and prayers, but those two were not individual battles. Of all those listed, the one that always jumps out at me is the Ploesti Raid. If ever a mission could have gone off with so much stacked against it, and still be considered at least partially a success, that would be it.

[renrich]

Two other major air battles to consider would be the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, 2-5 March, 1943 and Operation Hailstone, 17-18 February, 1944, the operation to neutralize the IJN base at Truk. Not as influential to the war's outcome as Midway but very important.

[parsifal]

I think the RAFs 1000 bomber raid or the devastating raids overv Hamburg July 1943 ought to be considered, as they were among the first truly successful offensive raids over germany. I think it was Speer who said something like "three more raids like that and we are done for!!!! Kaput Ya!!!! Perhaps overstating their effect, but they were successful nevertheless.

But in my opinion, the "greatest" raids are reserved for the FAA. Greatest IMO is not the biggest, it the most bang for your buck. Taranto has to rate as one of the most cost effective raids by any combatant in any theatre. Just 18 Swordfish knocking out three battlewagons has to be considered one of the greates achievements of the war, far more effective, plane for plane, than the japanese raids at Pearl more than a year later. Carried out in the middle of the night, no other air force could achieve such economy of force

[timshatz]

When I think of greatest, I tend to think of an air battle that changed the course of the war from a strategic perspective. In that realm, there are really very few. Midway and BOB on September 15th (maybe the Mariannas Turkey Shoot) are the only ones that come to mind right away.

Problem with the idea is air wars are not isolated events (in the main) but Campaigns that go on over months. The rare events that are periodic and decisive are almost all involving the Carrier Battles. They are the only air battles that are episodic (come together, clash, one side loses or wins and the fight is over).

That in mind, I would have to side with Midway. Not my favorite battle, but definitely a turning point that was entirely air derived.

[ccheese]

I voted for the Battle of Midway. That was the turning point of the Pacific
war. It should also be noted that I am a fan of the Pacific war, rather than
the war in Europe.

Charles

[Venganza]

Thanks for the info, Njaco. I think I know what thread you're talking about. I'll check it out.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by Njaco

You're right Erich. I was trying to get an idea of what everyone thought was their favorite (and maybe that was the word I should have used) air battle and why they thought so.

How about the "Pedestal" air battles Aug 11 & 12 '42? The first time that 4 Allied Aircraft Carriers operated as a single unit IIRC, with Eagle, Victorious, Indomitable & Furious operating together to cover the convoy. Check my Siggy! {Did the US have a 4 carrier operation before this?}

The resupply situation was critical in Malta in the summer of '42, and the Axis sent dozens of attacks against it, both air & U-boat. The critical days, Aug 11 & 12 was when the fleet passed through the narrow straight between Sicily & Tunisia