The Greatest Air Battle

Erich · 10-02-2008, 12:26 PM

how about January 11, 1944 with 60 bombers shot down

May 28 and 29th, 1944 with over 30 bombers lost each day

right-O Bill on the earlier dates I posted a select 1-3 Bomb Groups picked out and ripped to pieces

drgondog · 10-02-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

how about January 11, 1944 with 60 bombers shot down

May 28 and 29th, 1944 with over 30 bombers lost each day

right-O Bill on the earlier dates I posted a select 1-3 Bomb Groups picked out and ripped to pieces

My measuring stick was any day in which 8th AF BC lost more than 5% or a division lost more than 10% and Jan 11 fits my own designation of a really bad day - I forgot that 60FTR even though about 10 were due to ops issues rather than Luftwaffe. About 180+ were damaged from light to severe. The 8th lost about 13% of the attacking force - IIRC this was worst % for rest of war...

Erich · 10-02-2008, 02:31 PM

I know there is a book in print possibly by Hikkoki pubs over the Jan. 11 44 mission.

have been in touch since 1999 with a Dutch researcher who has found many B-17 parts and of course studied the event as much fell over his homeland, we ascertained that several Bf 110G-2's with Br 21cm rocket launchers hit the lead B-17's of the lead bombers thus upsetting the whole route and time-table of the US attack.

The day time ZG twin engines claimed 18 B-17's and 3 NJG's claimed some 12 B-17's during this day engagement when flying the day op. LW claims were for 91 bombers on the date.

drgondog · 10-02-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

I know there is a book in print possibly by Hikkoki pubs over the Jan. 11 44 mission.

have been in touch since 1999 with a Dutch researcher who has found many B-17 parts and of course studied the event as much fell over his homeland, we ascertained that several Bf 110G-2's with Br 21cm rocket launchers hit the lead B-17's of the lead bombers thus upsetting the whole route and time-table of the US attack.

The day time ZG twin engines claimed 18 B-17's and 3 NJG's claimed some 12 B-17's during this day engagement when flying the day op. LW claims were for 91 bombers on the date.

This is one area of mystery for me. The LW had total control of all possible crash sites except North Sea and Channel and yet the overclaims on bombers in large battles was usually 50-70%. (Of course 8th AF BC overclaims were probably in the 95% range..)

I just went through MECC again for Jan 11.

45 were cited as German Fighters, 3 to MAC with a GAF fighter, 7 due to flak , two to mechanical failure and three to ditchings in which crews were rescued... the latter can be presumed to battle damage - either flak or fighters

Njaco · 10-02-2008, 08:11 PM

Erich and Bill, from those dates you posted which would be the one that you would chose as the most intense, action-packed, incredible from the lot of them? I know Erich helped me with January 11 when I first signed on and that was pretty brutal. I want to get a handle on what specific action you would say interests you the most or that you admire the most from both sides perspective as regarding heorism, intensity, skill or anything that stands out for you.

drgondog · 10-02-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njaco

Erich and Bill, from those dates you posted which would be the one that you would chose as the most intense, action-packed, incredible from the lot of them? I know Erich helped me with January 11 when I first signed on and that was pretty brutal. I want to get a handle on what specific action you would say interests you the most or that you admire the most from both sides perspective as regarding heorism, intensity, skill or anything that stands out for you.

In terms of sheer numbers the Nov 2, 1944 engagements or Nov 26 would be high on the list of ETO in which very large numbers of attacking LW fighters were in same airspace with one, then two then three 8th AF Fighter groups in the same battle.

In terms of US fighters outnumberered but scrambling around in bad weather and clouds against a much larger LW force, and shooting down 40+, but losing 27 B-17s to flak, fighters and scrambling to Switzerland, I would go with the April 24, 1944 battle around Munich. That was one helluva fight and the B-17s did heavy damage to Do 335 plant at Oberpfaffenhofen west of Munich. What I really liked is the disciplne shown by Dregne (357Gp leader) and Dix (355Gp leader) in this fight. They were dribbling sections at a time rather than committing entire squadrons in trying to stave off determined attacks by more than 200+ s/e plus another 20+ t/e fighters concentrated in that area around Munich.

The day could have been worse than Berlin or Schweinfurt if the discipline was broken down.

The problem I have with Jan 11 is that the escort fighter strength for 8th FC was so small the the t/e NJG were able to score with near impunity w/o being molested and they took a heavy toll. By the time 4/24 took place few Me 110/210/410 could survive... and the LW had a lot of experienced fighter pilots and leaders intact. March 6, Big B, was another hellacious battle as the Mustang strength was growing but LW still very strong that deep.

After April 29, the LW was still able to hammer one Bomb Wing or Bomb Group but never able to really punish 8th BC again with 5+% losses

Erich · 10-02-2008, 09:59 PM

I can't seem to come up with a specific action at the moment, if I dig out the stuff am sure re-reading through US bomber group missions reports will surely click something in me. Nov 26 has a special meaning since I lost cousin KIA on it and of course have quite a bit of data.

let me look for each of what I posted up

drgondog · 10-02-2008, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

I can't seem to come up with a specific action at the moment, if I dig out the stuff am sure re-reading through US bomber group missions reports will surely click something in me. Nov 26 has a special meaning since I lost cousin KIA on it and of course have quite a bit of data.

let me look for each of what I posted up

Jan 14, 1945 over Berlin was another great single unit (357FG) battle

Erich · 10-02-2008, 11:15 PM

here is some simple info I put on a draft sheet many years ago through studies of some of the Fall 1944 missions of the USAF vs the LW.

Sept. 11, 1944

92nd lost 8-11 due to Sturm attacks
100th lost 11 to JG 4 Sturm attacks and from III./JG 4 109's.

Sept. 12, 1944

306th loses 8 from Sturm attacks from IV.Sturm/JG 3
351st loses 6 from II.Sturm/JG 300 and 109s from JG 53
493rd loses 9 plus from JG 4 Sturms and III./JG 4

September 28

303rd loses 11 from Sturm attacks from IV.Sturm/JG 3
379th loses 2
384th loses 2
457th loses 7

October 6

94th loses 4 to Fw 190A's
385th loses 10 to Fw 190A's for both all from Sturm attacks

October 7

94th loses 8 to Sturm attacks

November 2nd

91st loses 13 to Sturm attacks
457th loses 9 plus to Sturm attacks

November 21st

398th loses 12-15 bombers

November 26th

445th loses 5 to JG 301, Sturm attacks in Schwarm size
491st loses 16 to JG 301

December 24th

487th loses 9 to Sturm attacks from IV.Sturm/JG 3

units given are certain through correspondance with surviving LW pilots and US bomber crewmen plus interviews and text from bomb group association reps.

on 14th of January the US 357th fg made a name for themselves, and JG 300 felt the sting as did JG 301

9 bombers lost from the 390th bg.

Bluehawk · 10-03-2008, 08:09 AM

Battle of Britain, no doubt whatsoever... as to numbers and intensity involved, and as to consequences of victory.

drgondog · 10-03-2008, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluehawk

Battle of Britain, no doubt whatsoever... as to numbers and intensity involved, and as to consequences of victory.

BoB got my vote as most important with Midway second but I wouldn't remotely consider either one for 'intensity'..

Dunkirk and Dieppe and Marianas and Bodenplatte and November 2/26 and the battle over Berlin on Jan 14, 1945 all rank high in terms of sheer 'intensity' of numbers, clashes and aircraft falling out of the sky in a short period of time.

Erich · 10-03-2008, 11:28 AM

I think the BoB is more like a struggle since it was over many days and not really a singular event, you may disagree and that is fine but in my brain a one day aerial engagement constitutes a battle in the air

2 centos

drgondog · 10-03-2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich

I think the BoB is more like a struggle since it was over many days and not really a singular event, you may disagree and that is fine but in my brain a one day aerial engagement constitutes a battle in the air

2 centos

I totally agree - even midway and marianas were days whereas the rest of the ones we are talking about were compressed into minutes...

Njaco · 10-03-2008, 09:30 PM

Quote:

I think the BoB is more like a struggle since it was over many days and not really a singular event, you may disagree and that is fine but in my brain a one day aerial engagement constitutes a battle in the air

Bingo! Thats what I was looking for! Not to discredit Kursk and the others but that says what I was looking for.

Thanks Erich!

pbfoot · 10-03-2008, 10:02 PM

Still would like some more votes for Dieppe 160 aircraft lost in 7hrs is not chump change and it was mostly fighters . Of note thats where the P51 and Typhoon had their first kills