Greatest Fighter Pilot in World War II..... UPDATED

[Udet]

Erich:

Sorry, but I do not think I understod your point.

"in 1945 Luftwaffe a/c systematically tried to get P-51 escorts to drop their tanks and engage them.." ?

A fighter without its drop tank can certainly be more manouverable and faster, so what you possibly meant is the Germans tried to get the Mustangs still with their tanks on?

The footage I have shows perhaps two shots of P-51s getting destroyed with their drop tanks on; it is, however, a clear case of bouncing, the USA guys never say what killed them. But in the vast majority of the cases, when it is clear you are watching a dogfight, no drop tanks in the underwing at all.

That is perhaps the main reason why such fuel tanks could be jettisoned, don´t you think? (i) Drop tanks diminished the manouvering and speed of the fighter and (ii) to enter a dogfight with your drop tank on and take enemy shells and bullets...you become a flying torch.


Porco14: I will not get into details with you on that. If you firmly believe what the soviet propaganda displays in Russian museums and pray everyone of the dogmas they told you, I am quite comfortable with that.

[Erich]

a couple of notations.

there never was a König gent a sniper at Stalingrad as the German Heer sniper did not get above sergeant in rank. there were no Waffen SS truppen at Stalingrad anyway. this is all myth. Koenig could easily have been scratched into the scope and that was strickly against regulations anyway.

second yes the Luftwaffe wanted to decrease the range of the P-51's by getting "mixed up" with the Allied escorts early on in the air battles so they could not come down after aerial engagements and shoot up airfields. What I was saying is that there was so much confidence in the US P-51 pilots they went ahead and operated against Luftwaffe single engine fighters with drop tanks on. Not necessarily a smart move but many did it anyway.

E

[plan_D]

Porco, start a thread on the Kursk battle in WWII General and I'll gladly educate you on the subject.

And no major offensive since Kursk? I see... Tell the lads sat around Bastogne that Germany had no fight in her.

[cheddar cheese]

not that s**t movie of course.

Hey theres nothing wrong with that film...may not be terribly accurate but its a great flick.

[BALU]

Originally Posted by Erich

...there never was a König gent a sniper at Stalingrad as the German Heer sniper did not get above sergeant in rank.
... Koenig could easily have been scratched into the scope and that was strickly against regulations anyway.

As Zaitsev has been told König (Konings according to Zaitsev) was a head of sniper school in Berlin. One german prizoner told that Konings arrived by aircraft with a task to kill Zaitsev. And in fact a very good sniper appeared on the german side that time. That sniper destroyed a scope of the Morozov (russian sniper) and wounded sniper Shaikin. Both were very expirienced.
After Konings wounded a friend of Zaitsev - Nikolay Kulikov and wounded a politruk (in a finger) who tried to show Konongs shelter.
Next day Zaitsev killed a german sniper who were major with documents (Zaitsev has seen his body). The scope of german sniper was wery powerful (x6 o more). Only very good sniper can use this kind of scope. Olso, that german sniper was very patient. It was unusual for "regular" german snipers.
In Stalingrad Zaitsev was not the best soviet sniper. The best was Sasha Kolentiev.

[BALU]

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

Hey theres nothing wrong with that film...may not be terribly accurate but its a great flick.

The film is good and "wellreseived" in Russia. But it gives you a kind of wrong impression about russians (and soviets) - I can not say about germans. Russians do not love "heroic" people. A classik russian hero is an unpretentious person, without any visible self advertisment.

The block troops NEVER used in a manner showed in this moovie. Usually they were staying about kilometres from the front line, catchig deserters.

Troops NEVER were transported in locked carriages. It is idiotic. How can you escape from bombers from locked carriage?

[BALU]

Originally Posted by Porco14

Regarding Kozhedub's skirmish with P-51s.

Here is gun camera with two downed P-51s. The book I took it from tells that one of mustang pilots bailed out and later said that they mistook La-7 for "FW-190 with red nose" and opened fire from the long distance.

Zeiss optic in La-7?

[BALU]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

I dont know what happened to this poll, but the # of votes for Kozhedub CANNOT be that favorable over Hartmann, as much as I would like them to be.....

900 votes + is just wayyyyyyy off..... Someone spamming????

All Russia was here

[Nonskimmer]

[cheddar cheese]

Either that or Kozhedub himself

[CharlesBronson]

Ace at works.

Hartmann 300th.


The following is an extract of the radio comunication betwenn Erich Hartmann, his wingman, and the groun control the day he achieved his 300th kill.

Russia -24th August 1944

Erich Hartmann, yet the most succesful pilot of the history scored his 290th victory the day before. The whole squadron is waiting for the historical moment - the 300. kill of Erich Hartmann, the first pilot to achieve this figure.

Just after lunch Oberleutnant Hartmann flew his first mission of the day. The squadron members are waiting in front of the radio.

13.07: Hartmann is reporting for the first time on the radio

13.15: Hartmann has contact with the enemy and is instantly scoring his first kill of the day

13.18: Abschuß ! (victory!). He orders his wingman to move to the opposite side.

13.19: Look out for enemies from above ! Attention ! Abschuß!

13.25: Abschuß !

13.27: Abschuß ! Reprimands his wingman to fly better. Watch above !

Silence

13.40: Abschuß ! Burns near the street. Another pilot: Bombers over O.

13.44: Do you have contact ? Another formation

13.45: Airacobras. Watch above !

13.48: Watch above !

13.57: Land, I will rock my wings six times.

Nearly two hours later, Hartmann is preparing for another mission.

15.44: Question to ground control: Do you have a bogie ? No ? Why are we then airborne ?

15.50: Ground control: Enemies over Sandowiez.

15.51: Watch out ! Airacobras !

16.00: Abschuß !

16.03: Abschuß !

16.06: Watch the rear and above ! Abschuß !

16.10: Abschuß ! (Airacobra/300.)

16.19: Ordering to attack an Pe 2 formation

16.20: Abschuß !

16.37: Hartmann is landing

His victories on that day included 3 Pe-2, 2 yak fighters and 1 Airacobra

As ever in the case of such occasions he was handed flowers and champagne to celebrate the event. Only that the flowers were picked from the fields nearby and the champagne was warm."Bimmel" Mertens, his mechanic was the first to congratulate him, but soon the whole group followed and the next morning the was far from being in a "ready" condition. But it did not matter as the news came through that he had been awarded the Diamonds.

[reddragon]

I'm impressed with Erich Hartmann. His first mission was October 14, 1942 and his last one was May 8, 1945 so he only had two years, seven months and according to him, around 1,456 missions, to achieve 352 victories.

[reddragon]

Lesofprimus, I like your signature.

[Erich]

BALU, sorry bud but your story is pure crap. All snipers had powerful scopes. König or whatever Soviet propaganda you want to beleive about Zaitslev's story is pure rubbish. No German sniper was allowed to mark any of his personal effects since this could possibly lead to the units ID.

Again I repeat there was no König and NO snipers were sent to Stalingrad above sergeant because there just wern't any on the front fighting as front line soldiers. The W-SS as I mentioned did not start up their own sniper schools until after the Stalingrad fiasco.

There are no German records accounting for the listing of a major of König or whomever of a sniper school during or ater the Stalingrad battles......

sorry this is off topic

[john]

Hi,
I´m new, so first a say hallo to everyone.
I just read your posts.
How can you say that Ivan Kozhedub is the greatest pilot?
Just because he´s an alli?
Is it hard to say, yes, the germans had the better pilots?
Look at the stats. The best 100 german-pilots(lets say achsen-pilots, cause their where also austrian for example)
shot down ca. 14000 airplanes!!!

There is no way out to say Hartmann was the best pilot.
The best skills maybe had Marseille. I read some books about fighter aces and all books say the same. Doesn´t if its an german or an american author. Marseille shot and flough like a devil. If he hadn´t died maybe he would count more kills than hartmann.
And he was fighting in the West, so some can not say "they just fought in the east. the russians were bad fighters etc..."



Sorry but I often ralise that a lot of people just see the allies and think the germans were bad fighters just because they were germans!
The Germans lost the war thats fact
but if your are objective you have to say. They got the best army. this includes soldiers, weapons and of course good genreal staffs.
The hole allied nations did not have as good technic as the germans at the beginning of the world war. And even at the end the germans had weapons which were still the best in their class. they just didn´t have the opportunity to build them.
This is just for those who are so to say "allied blinded"

john