Greatest Fighter Pilot in World War II..... UPDATED

[Glider]

I would also have to go for SaburoSakai apart from his other achievements, the one that always sticks in my mind is he never lost a wingman.
That is I suspect, unique and says volumes about the man.

[Piaggio108]

Hartmann never lost a wingman either unless I'm mistaken

[evangilder]

I seem to recall hearing that once as well, Piaggio. Erich or Adler may know for sure though.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Piaggio108

Hartmann never lost a wingman either unless I'm mistaken

Not in air-to-air combat - you're correct!

[cheddar cheese]

Its a shame that someone spam voted Kozhedub.

[lesofprimus]

I agree CC.. It was going good till someone spammed the hell outta it... It was a pretty close race up to the spamathon.....

[marseille jr]

1 the victory tally is not too relevant when deciding about quality. Compare for example graff and hartman. Graff was the first man ever to pass the 200 mark . As a result of that he was forbidden to fly further missions, deemed too valuable by the german upper command.. This was somewhere in 1943. If one considers he downed an average of more than 15 planes a month this means that, had he flown for another year, mathematically he would have had about 380 vics ... one year later in 1944. Yes more than hartmann who flew intermittently until the end.

2 Marseille died aged 22. He scored over 150 vics in one year without bein downed by the enemy. He averaged 15 rounds /kill. He set a world record with 17 in one day (ok, lang got 18, but that was on the russian front). He obtained 56 vics in one month against a numerically superior enemy equipped with spits and well trained pilots. If he had flown one year extra at this level, well he would have notched up 500 vics and more. Marseille is undeniably the best dogfighter ever and the most talented. However, if I would have been a pilot in WWII I would have preferred the hartmann style, as it is much safer for a common pilot.

3 what about emil lang and kurt bühligen? Lang scored over 100 vics in 2 months! He has been called the bravest man of the luftwaffe. He died over my home town (sint-truiden) after his landing gear came out during a dogfight with p47's. He was a masterful gunner, which he proved through his world record of 18 in one day. He was on par with marseille I think, but since marseille was 15 years younger, marseille wins.

4 I've seen hartmanns list and was not impressed. His planes were usually p39 or lagg3. I didn't see any la-7 or yak-3. Erich himself said he avoided dogfights. He was a tactical genius and a supreme pilot, but not the best fighter in the world. As mentioned before, If I had been a pilot back then, i would have adopted his style : chose weak enemies in a tactical disadvanced position, bag them and get the hell out. Very smart .

5 let's not forget Bartels too. He racked up a nice tally containing lotsa p51's, p38's and p47's.

6 It's not fair and not apt to compare pilots from different countries. If Kozhedub or juutlilanen had been germans, they may have become 200 or 300+ aces as well.

Conclusion: Marseille rules, with Emil Lang in his wake.

[Erich]

doesn't matter, Heinz Baer was still better than any of them

[marseille jr]

Nope.

Bär was an excellent fighter pilot, but not the best. Both Lang and marseille (and prolly bartels and rudorffer) would have beaten him in a fight.

[marseille jr]

Bär was shot down 18 times btw

[lesofprimus]

Hmmm.... Someones challenging Erichs opinion.........

[Nonskimmer]

** Cue the theme to "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly".**

[evangilder]

I would like to see your supporting documentation, Marseille. Believe me, Erich is quite well versed in German fighter pilots, planes and tactics.

[lesofprimus]

Both Lang and marseille (and prolly bartels and rudorffer) would have beaten him in a fight.

And he would have beaten them too.... No pilot won all his mock battles... Even if some magical genie came out of Meds special bottle and poofed Baer over to the VVS, the results would have been the same....

Approach each other at XXX MPH, in a neutral posture, and its on..... I give Baer 5 outta 10, as I do each of the other excellent pilots u listed...... Even money.........

In January 1945, Bär became the Kommandeur of Ergänzungs-Jagdgeschwader 2, an advanced training unit for the Messerschmitt Me 262A jet pilots at Lechfeld... Not something a poor pilot would be assigned to.... Bär downed 13 enemy bombers and fighters while he served with III/EJG 2.........

When Galland was wounded, Bär took over command of the unit on April 26, 1945......... Hell of a man to replace, wouldnt u agree????

With JV 44, he flew the prototype Me 262A-1a/U1 extra heavily armed with six cannon including two 20mm MG 151s, two 30mm MK 103s and two 30mm MK 108s....... He downed his last three victories, all Republic P-47 Thunderbolts, with JV 44....

Heinz Bär is the 8th ranking air "Ace" of all time..... He fought on every German front throughout the entire duration of World War II in Europe and Africa...... His 16 aerial victories acquired while he flew the Me 262A place him as the 2nd ranking jet ace of WWII.... While fighting on every front and flying just about every type of German fighter, Heinz Bär was shot down 18 times and wounded on many occasions.

Not many pilots can say they flew in all the theatres of the war marseille... This guy was no slouch as u seem to be implying..... Your namesake was aguably the greatest, and many people would agree, but Baer was his equal....

I think i will be remaking this topic with a new poll and revise the listing... Please see the above poll and add who u think should be added/removed... I did a pretty good job for this last poll....
remember, only 15 names can be listed, so think wisely and universally....

Eder, Schnaufer and Bartles look like they will be removed... Who to add?????

[FLYBOYJ]

Agree with the above, I think Bob Johnson needs to be added in there, he carried a similar kill pace to Galland, also don't forget the "night guys" like Heinz Wolfgang Schnaufer (121 kills). I also think Macky Steinhoff and Werner Molders needs to be mentioned as well.