The Greatest Fighter Pilot in WW II???

[Cheap Labour]

Originally Posted by the lancaster kicks ass

what about jonnie johnson?? 515 missions, only once did his plane get "holed"

Not to dishonour the guy, but combat records like that make me doubt the veracity of his flying. Sounds like the "in and out real quick, gents, no one get killed" kind of strategy. It has a bit of merrit - it keeps his pilots alive.

On the other hand, it doesn't do it's job, which is killing the enemy. Sounds to me like if that was the case, then Johnnie was stuck in battle of Britian mode, poor fellah.

[Cheap Labour]

Originally Posted by cheddar cheese

He never got hit by an enemy plane, but he did have to bail out on a couple of occasions.

Yeah, he was forced down numerous times from his 109 being damaged by the debris of exploding/shedding enemy A/C.

After the first two or three times that happened I'd definately invest in an armoured prop. :P

And possibly some armoured undies too.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

As for Johnie Johnson, I dont think there is nothing wrong with the in and out aproach. Like you said it keep pilots alive and yes it does get the job done.

[Karaya_1]

Hi there, my Number One is Erich Hartmann (no wonder when looking at my nickname..). I just found a scoring list on the net and there is Marmaduke Pattle (South Africa) with 51 kills....so he ist the number one ace of the western allies..... (http://www.1000pictures.com/aircraft/aces.htm).
There is always the story of easy victories in the east....but these things were always told by people from the western allies, who never fought against the russians......they are just jealous, because after the war, they didn't believed the german kill records, but they have been documented very exactly and so they had to apologize.... in fact, some of their kills were not confirmed by the strict Luftwaffe rules, so many german pilots have 10 - 50 more kills than official... in the first days of the war against Russia, the kills were easy, ok, many experienced pilots had been killed by Stalin and there were a lot of amateur pilots in obsolete planes...but when EH entered the fight in 1943, things had changed.....sometimes, german pilots had to fight enemy fighters at a 1:20 or even 1:40 ratio....one ace against 20 novices, that's not easy....when you talk to german aces flying against russian pilots, no one speaks of easy kills....I've got Kozhedub's memoir from the 1950's ("Ich greife an !" "I'm attacking !"), there he describes the dogfights against the Luftwaffe and he speaks about many experienced pilots flying for the red airforce.....they were trained very well far away from the fighting area (not like in Germany, where many training pilots were shot down by marauding allied fighters) and their planes are often equal to the german fighters....I'm always a little bit amused, when I hear people born 40 years after the war talking about the quality of planes they never even had touched....so I believe in the evaluations of the people, who actually FLEW this birds.... And a word to the rudder markings....when you look at the profiles of Hartmann's 109 from 1944/45, there are no kill markings....you won't show the enemy, that you are a ace......

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hallo Karaya_1, wie geht es dir? Ich bin aus Stuttgart aber wohne ich Ansbach jetzt. Keine sorge Hartman is auch meine lieblings pilot. Okay back to english though so everyone can read. Yes I agree with you that Hartmann was the best. I do not wish to take away from alled aces though there were many great English and US pilots too. The thing that I think is so grand and marvelous is the Luftwaffe pilots who still took to the skies in the closing days of war even though the war was basically lost, it was true show of bravery and love of you country. Oh man I am going to be in trouble for posting this, RG_Lunatic will not like it at all and tell me I am false for saying this. Whatever. Wilkommen Karaya_1.

[cheddar cheese]

Originally Posted by Cheap Labour

Yeah, he was forced down numerous times from his 109 being damaged by the debris of exploding/shedding enemy A/C.

After the first two or three times that happened I'd definately invest in an armoured prop. :P

And possibly some armoured undies too.

Or even a cowcatcher type device

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Not to dishonour the guy, but combat records like that make me doubt the veracity of his flying. Sounds like the "in and out real quick, gents, no one get killed" kind of strategy. It has a bit of merrit - it keeps his pilots alive.

On the other hand, it doesn't do it's job, which is killing the enemy. Sounds to me like if that was the case, then Johnnie was stuck in battle of Britian mode, poor fellah.

it obviously worked if he got 38 kills over single engined fighters............

[cheddar cheese]

But it could have ben more...

[Udet]

Karaya hello!

Well, I do think your comments require further scrutiny.

Kozhedub himself made a superb pilot, but you have to understand his style of depicting the great patriotic war.

Kozhedub was made a hero. He was so highly praised, once the war ended, I ve been told by trustable people, he used to see himself above humans, like half human/half god.

As a "Hero of the Soviet Union" with all the overdose of overpatriostism such titles contained, he enjoyed privileges 98% of the soviet population could not even dream of.

When he affirms far away from the fronts, "in the depths" of the USSR, there were thousands of soviet new fighters receiving superb training programs, I do not think he is telling the truth, or at least, the whole truth.

Indeed, there were several excellent soviet pilots. General Novikov indeed tried to improve the overall situation of the VVS after the initial hammer delivered by the Luftwaffe: but in the skies the situation did not improve that much.

If you can get to numbers, research further, and you will realize soviert losses of combat planes not only did not drop after 1941, they INCREASED.

The soviet union hastily trained the bulk of its pilots throughout the entire war. And from my talks with veterans they admit it; in a very naive manner if you will, but they admit it.

Soviet losses during 1945 alone, I repeat, during 1945 alone made (+/-) 11,000 combat planes.

Does the number tell you anything Karaya?

The Luftwaffe did not have too much planes, much less enough fuel to engange the VVS from January 1st to May 8th 1945.

I digress: while there were some improvements in the VVS, the overall operational quality remained mediocre.

The casualty rate due to accidents was frightful for the soviets.

As the conflict saw itself protracted, Stalin political goals only grew stronger, and nothing, absolutely nothing could stop him from reaching out to such goals.

The lives of soviet army and air force men? He couldn´t care less. "Send´em on. That is my order."

[wmaxt]

Originally Posted by toffi

That's my vote as well. 352 and you don't have to say any more.

The problem we get into comparing kills is that there are different rules used in awarding them, The Germans awarded up to 4 killes for 1 heavy bomber. The Americans awarded aircraft destroyed on the ground as kills in Europe and in the air only in the Pacific. Also how many times did a particular pilot get shot down in persuite of his kills and how should that affect his score?

[Karaya_1]

Originally Posted by wmaxt

The Germans awarded up to 4 killes for 1 heavy bomber.

If I understand that correct, you mean that if a German pilot shoots down 1 4-engined bomber, he ist credited with 4 kills ? If you mean that, then it is absolut nonsense !!!! No Airforce had such strict rules and checks before getting a kill confirmed, than the Luftwaffe ! There is only one other possibility : if you damage a bomber and he has to leave the formation, then you are credited with a "Herausschuss HSS ("Shooting-out" (of the formation), it is difficult to translate), but it is not officially counted as a kill (so you might have five kills and six HSS).
If you mean something different, please explain it to me !

[Karaya_1]

Oh, and by the way : Hallo DerAdlerIstGelandet !

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There were many great aces of WW2 but it is still hard to top Erich Hartmann he was a young and telented pilot.

Oh und Karaya wie ist es in Deutschland jetzt grad? Trink eine Gleuhwein fuer mich bitte!

[Karaya_1]

Wir haben hier +3° C in München, kein Regen, kein Schnee.....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Das ist scheisse. Wuerde gern schnee sehen, aber bald komme ich wieder zuhause dann hoffentlich gibt es schnee.