The Greatest Fighter Pilot in WW II???

plan_D · 08-06-2004, 01:45 PM

You live there then...

...oh, cheap shot.

the lancaster kicks ass · 08-06-2004, 01:56 PM

very very cheap...........................

toffi · 08-06-2004, 04:40 PM

>>>this one's mine, i used to sign my pics "icefish"

lesofprimus · 08-06-2004, 05:15 PM

planD.. I was jokin man.... Ur siggy is a jet.....

Gotta lighten up bud.... The world is a humorous place....

I./JG53_lud13 · 08-06-2004, 05:49 PM

Hi all....

Great topic i must admit

First of all I woted for Harrtmann of course.

He start to fly operationaly in 7./JG52 on 10 October 1942. That means more than half WWII alredy gone and war become much much worse on Eastern front too. So stories off easy times in Russia for Harrtmann are very hard to be......His first kill came on his 19th sortie ,an IL-2 that also downed the Harrtmann himself by debrises.....His kill No5 came on his 68 sortie a Po-2. So You can see he was not some superhero pilot ..he was a great tactician befor all.
He had made his own combat rules. See..Decide..Attack or Coffie break.
"First see your enemy , than look at tactical situation its not nesecery too attack as soon as u see enemy. Look how many of htem are, how they fly, look for stragleers etc. Than if u decide it safe to attack do it fast and as close as possible. When u think is close go even closer. 150m..100m..50..fire. Go up and look situation again etc. In his own words " I am sure that 70% of my victims even didnt know i was there before it was too late for them."
As for the wingman he sad that if u score i kill in a dogfight and come back home without your wingman u have lost the battle. Hartmann did loose only one wingman Gunther Capito ( who was by the way transerd from bomber unit )but was lucky to survive when he go ito standard bomber turn in a middle off dogfight with Aircobras.
And YES..he did shoot down 7 P-51s (by the way only sheer numbers of 30-40 to1, gave the edge Mustangs over Bf 109G/K with MW50....the pilots have the order not to tackle the escorts..what a stupid order by the way ) and a great number of Westrn made aircraft . Graet majority of his victories was fighters LA-5 being one of the most involved. If u want I can scan his list of victories. Up to 150 kills is complet after that only fragments. I hear from many people that German scoreboards are pure Nazi propaganda...Take Harrtmann for example : 352 kills ok Lets say he overclaimed 20% in good fate..dameged, trailed smoke etc..Ok even 30% is way ahead of any allied pilot . But remeber there was no rest for German fighter pilots. Allied pilots fly 50 to 100 missions and thats it (not in battle of Britain and voluntiers ) and home he go. But for Russians and Germans not. Fly until u get kill, woundied or right to the end of the war.
So imagine German fighter pilot in 1944/45 who downed his first wictim over Spain or Poland now with more than 1000 combat missions flying the same aircraft as than ( I mean Bf 109, or Fw190 )...Yes he is sure tired from war and flying but imagine his expiriance. They died too!! Some where shoot even more than 10 times, so you must include and luck in their sucsess.

I am not saying the Germans where better pilots than Russian, Americans or Brits..they too had great pilots.

I./JG53_lud13 · 08-06-2004, 05:51 PM

Loool
I used Harrtmann instead of Hartmann...SHAME ON ME

lesofprimus · 08-06-2004, 07:16 PM

I truley belive that there were better fighter pilots than Hartmann... If he flew in the WTO, his score wouldnt be what it is, and he woulda been shot down many more times than he did...

But he is definatly Top 3... Who the other 2 are up to argument...

Lightning Guy · 08-06-2004, 10:06 PM

Marseille as #1. Perhaps Molders as #2.

I believe the order to not tangle with the Allied escorts was a viable one. First of all, P-38s, -47s, -51s were not blasting German industry into little bitty bits; B-17s and B-24s were. Therefore it was more important to stop the bombers than the fighters. Also, the Luftwaffe was taking considerable losses by engaging Allied fighters. But I do believe the Germans did employ 190s and 109s to escort the more heavily armed bomber-destroyers, didn't they?

plan_D · 08-07-2004, 12:26 AM

Les, my sig isn't any old jet. It's the Lightning...

So no one knows how to tell the difference between the Phantoms, it's the exhaust fumes. The American engines were really dirty while the Rolls-Royce Spey Engines were clean. The American Phantoms leave a trail of black behind them.

the lancaster kicks ass · 08-07-2004, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Les, my sig isn't any old jet. It's the Lightning...

he's not british, he wouldn't understand how sackred the lightning is..................

plan_D · 08-07-2004, 07:58 AM

Well he should, it was the only thing in Western Worlds arsenal until the Phantom that could reach the altitude of the Soviet bombers.

the lancaster kicks ass · 08-07-2004, 11:36 AM

and it's arguably the greatest interceptor of all time....................

plan_D · 08-07-2004, 02:15 PM

Well it definately was the best interceptor of its day, it's day being 30 years from first flight to being out-dated.

Lightning Guy · 08-07-2004, 10:16 PM

Given the emphasis being placed on multi-mission capability today, it is unlikely that any more pure interceptors will be built.

plan_D · 08-08-2004, 01:20 AM

Mulit-role, jack of all trades;master of none. Although the Eagle airframe does it well. That's probably the best interceptor these days, but you don't really need aircraft for it anymore.