The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized....

[CurzonDax]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

That is possable I was going by my memory. Thanks Les if you are correct.

Goria Epstien of the Israeli AF has 17 victories, all in jets.

:{)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by CurzonDax

I understand all of this. But when I was growing up the only ace that was famous was Pappy because of his infamous series, maybe Yeager and many forget he was an ace in a day. You only seemed to hear about Galland, Hartmann, Johnson, Bader, etc, etc, etc. The first time I ever read about American aces was in Gene Gurney's Five Down and Glory. It was years before I saw other books and these were the Hammel books. I guess, because when I was growing up, the major WWII documentary was The World at War, which had a more Euro slant and so were many of the books at the time. I still have to thank Bantam and thier WWII series for saving my historical mind. Even today it seems that US aces are still in the wings, exept for Pappy or Yeager.

:{)

Like I said, I think there were a lot of great American Aces. Many Many Many that were just as good and skilled as the top Luftwaffe Aces. I personally just think that the numbers of the top Luftwaffe Aces and Experten speaks for all for itself. I mean look at Erich Hartmann alone, he even tought at a USAAF flight school in the United States after the war, well after he was released from POW camps in Russia and returned to Germany. These men really accomplished something in Aviation History that will probably never be broken. It is really hard to put others up on the pedistals with them.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Like I said, I think there were a lot of great American Aces. Many Many Many that were just as good and skilled as the top Luftwaffe Aces. I personally just think that the numbers of the top Luftwaffe Aces and Experten speaks for all for itself. I mean look at Erich Hartmann alone, he even tought at a USAAF flight school in the United States after the war, well after he was released from POW camps in Russia and returned to Germany. These men really accomplished something in Aviation History that will probably never be broken. It is really hard to put others up on the pedistals with them.

I agree 100%, there was alot of pilots from USA or UK that could fly a plane as well as they could, but no other nation asked and demanded of their pilots the way that Germany did, and still have the pilots do such a successful job at the same time.

-UK and USA pilots were taken off combat duty after a short number of missions when compared to German pilots. They also did not have to fly many many of their missions totally out numbered like Germans had to. Also part of the reason that Germans had so many kills is the number of combat missions that they had to fly, many of those they were fatigued because of the number of flights they had to make ever day.

-Japan had pilots that flew a long time also but they also were either killed or did not enjoy the same amount of success as the German pilots did.

-Russia did not have alot of pilots score a high number of kills (compared to the Germans totals) because many of them were killed. They did have to fly much of the war in inferior planes than the Germans but they also had numbers on their side almost always.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Hunter368

I agree 100%, there was alot of pilots from USA or UK that could fly a plane as well as they could, but no other nation asked and demanded of their pilots the way that Germany did, and still have the pilots do such a successful job at the same time.

I agree however the British did just that during the BoB. They depended on the RAF for there survival and the RAF fought valiently and one at incredible odds that were stacked against them.

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I agree however the British did just that during the BoB. They depended on the RAF for there survival and the RAF fought valiently and one at incredible odds that were stacked against them.

I agree again but that was for only a few months not the whole war. During the BoB when LW was targetting RAF bases and just in general the RAF pilots were very tired and worn out. They were not near defeat but the pilots were at the end of their ropes so to speak. Now imagine how they would of felt and performed if they fought most of the war the same way. But I agree during that short peroid RAF was out numbered by the total forces of LW. During Battle of Germany the home defense fighters were sometimes out numbered not just by the total force attacking (bombers and fighters) but the USA escorts alone even out numbered the defending LW fighters. Thats scary stuff.

[Hellbird]

I'm new to this so don't call me stupid. How many kills did you need to be an ace? And wasn't Chuck Yeager an ace?

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Hellbird

I'm new to this so don't call me stupid. How many kills did you need to be an ace? And wasn't Chuck Yeager an ace?

Welcome Hellbird - 5 kills, Yeager was an ace (12 kills) and you're not stupid, read on some of the threads and join in....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Welcome to the site.

[Gnomey]

Welcome to the forums Hellbird.

[evangilder]

Welcome aboard, Hellbird. No worries, we are all here to learn.

[Hunter368]

Hello Hellbird

[Rudi]

Hello there, I´m new here, too.

My favourite Pilots of the war were those defending their country against the intruders, like the British in the BOB, the Russians, just to call some... But of all nations, the LW impressed me most. Sure, first i hated Göring too, saying bad words about the LW-Pilots in Defense, like those stationed in Italy, or those in the Reichsverteidigung duty... BUT i read a lot and must admit, that there were enough Pilots who gave every day their best doing their duty and got not the success demanded by their leaders. It was a hard job, but a man who can surpass these fears and mental problems could really achieve success. Many could not and were called cowards, probably i could no do better in thei place... But there were cowards amoung those who fought and gave much, gave all they had and propably lost their life. Those Pilots, wo could fight against the Viermots, to breakethrough the escort (or to fly against them) ervery day, do their duty, lead their unit or do the proper job in the unit, those pilots i do admire. They were unselfish. Their life on the ground was not easy at all. But they did it.
Men performing well in the Reichsverteidigung, doind their job well for many years, leading units to success, like
Konrad "Pit" Bauer
Georg-Peter "Schorsch" Eder
Anton "Toni" Hackl
....

Especially Eder is my favourite, flying at the end the 262 scoring at least 14 propably 24 victories, and being wounded in January 45 before the Jet-units could achive their greatest success and action...

But there were others, like
Hans Ehlers
Alwin Doppler
Anton-Rudolf Piffer
Rudolf Engleder
Herbert Huppertz
Josef Wurmheller aso....

Not to forget the newcomers, young Pilots doing their job without having any or great experience in combat, like
Willi Unger 24v in 59 missions, 21 Viermots,
Willi Reschke 27v in 48 missions, 19 Viermots,
Walter Loos 38v in 66 missions, 22 Viermots... aso....
those Pilots got in very few missions their greatest success. In the end they flew many missions on Eastern front, mostly escort and groudattack, too.

ASO


It is hard to say who was the best. Propably nobody could answer this, because people cant be compared really. They can be compared by thei victories, their experience, their lobby and fans (some have none and were good pilots, too, like Buehligen), theis kills per sortie/day/rounds...
On all sides the pilots of all nations did their job very well and some didnt. Thats the point. Nobody has the exactly same conditions (not even physical conditions, since Hartmann, Lang, Marseille... had for example excellent eyesight. Douglas Bader, "Assi" Hahn had not- and Barkhorn and Balthasar had even glasses!)

[lesofprimus]

Welcome...

I will have to agree with u concerning Konrad Bauer, one hellofa pilot, and an excellent leader to boot...

BTW, some of Loos victories are in question...

[Hunter368]

Originally Posted by lesofprimus

Welcome...

I will have to agree with u concerning Konrad Bauer, one hellofa pilot, and an excellent leader to boot...

BTW, some of Loos victories are in question...

I believe off the top of my head Bauer shot down something like 30-35 bombers, thats impressive, he was a brave man. After all my reading about German pilots taking on the those USA bomber boxes, I would sooner take on the fighters any day than fly in at those bomber boxes. It had to be very unnerving sliding down in your seat as you get with in range of the bombers and see tracers flying by and hitting your plane and still head in and press your attack knowing anyone of those shots could end your life. IMHO those men who attacked the bomber boxes were the bravest men of them all. Whether you lived or died depended alot on sheer luck.

[CurzonDax]

I just bought a book this weekend about Luftwaffe aces in the western front. What is interesting, and I had heard these conclusions before were that:

1. If USAAF pilots had been allowed to fly as many missions as Luftwaffe pilots thier scores could have been theoretically as high as the highest Luftwaffe pilots.

2. USAAF pilots were just as good and thier equipment as good as the Luftwaffe in 39-41 when the Luftwaffe was still fighting a wholly offensive campaign. By 1943 the USAAF was on the attack role while the Luftwaffe was on the defensive.

So, it sort of backs up (not proves) that Gabreski, Yeager, Mahurin and so on were just as good both in skill and equipment as the Galland brothers, Priller, and so on and so forth. So many of you may say so what? What is your point?

My point is that also while the different comabatants may have had great individual pilots, the system that put out these pilots was also important. And I know it can be argued that as the war progressed and "safe" airspace diminished over Germany, Italy, and Japan it was still amazing that on a industrial level the USAAF and the GAF were still able to produce quality pilots. I want to stress that if USAAF pilots had flown the same amount of missions as GAF pilots, not only thier scores may have been comparable but also for sure there would have been as many aces in the USAAF than there was in the GAF.

:{)