The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized....

[lesofprimus]

Could only fit 15 up there, and there were previous polls before this one, and Buzz got ZERO votes, so............

No Buzz on this one...

[Erich]

as I said go read some materials on the SturmFw's Rudi, what the heck are you talking about frontal JG 11 attacks when I was emphasizing my point with the 3 sturmgruppen ? Do you know how a Sturmangriff was made ? not always by the Gruppenkommandeur and it also changed with the style that the US heavies were positioned in. A Rottenfuhrer or schwarmfuhrer true is needed but when it came to lat fall winter of 44-45 it was not necessary and staffelführers when not needed on the ground replced dead leadership and had to form up the attack on them after the SturmFw's went through the back to the front of the viermot pulk.

we may not be talking the same situation are we ? Gun cameras were provided for many sturmFw pilots in late summer-fall of 44 with the introduction of massive amounts of 2cm and 3cm Minengeschoss rounds, not just for the Staffelkapitäns anymore according to Hans Weik of 10.Sturm/JG 3 now.w deceased. there are several first person accounts of SturmFw pilots of IV.Sturm/JG 3 attacking B-17's where one pilot actually witnessed the destruction of a Fort due to the neighboring Fw, and he himslef attacked another opne and severed the wing off of it. That is just one instance.

true I will agree in the Reichsverteidigung and in 1 case where my cousin was killed in his Fw 190A-9, his Geschwader overly estimated the US bomber kills with 56 originally. After going through the gun cams and confirmational procedures by other first hand witnessed the JG 301 was credited with 21 kills, exactly matching the B-24 losses of the US 445thbg and the 491st bg that they had attacked ............ 26 November 44. A rare instance that matched up. 1944-45 were death throes fighters vs fighters slugging it out and this is where inflated claims can easily be made for both Luftw. and US fighter escorts

[CurzonDax]

Originally Posted by Erich

you better do some more reading on SturmFw angriff Rudi, it is very plausible for individual pilots to take down a specific bomber, it is recorded in their flubuchs and Geschwader histories besides the gun-cams.

sorry I just do not agree with your statements, Sturmfw's were to pick only one bomber per push through a pulk of bombers before setting up again for another attack hopefully by staffel strength. I've got too many vet interviews to say otherwise besides my friendship with several that are still alive

I also have done several vet interviews and seen a lot of footage to know the vast majority of footage is one plane shooting down one plane. But that was not my question. My question was if gun cameras were standard equipment on Luftwaffe aircraft like they were on many allied aircraft.

:{)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

For the most part I believe they were.

[Hunter368]

Anyone have a book or know a book on Hiroyoshi Nishizawa?

[Udet]

Curzondax:

If by standard equipment you mean the majority of the German fighters fitted with gun camera then the answer is yes.

To have gun cameras installed in fighters was a standard procedure for the Luftwaffe from the offset (Poland, September 1st. 1939).

Installing gun cameras in both Bf 109s and Fw 190s became even more significant during the bloody year of 1944, when the Luftwaffe wanted to gather as much video as possible of attacks against the massive heavy bomber boxes for both training purposes and propaganda.

I´ve been trying to figure out of a more exact percentage of German planes fitted with cameras during 1944; although I am not yet done, it´d appear it is not possible to finally come along with an accurate figure.

Still, and from what I´ve read and asked, it´d appear that at least 60% of the German planes were fitted with those cameras.

The situation of the USAAF in this particular department ain´t necessarily clearer. I have asked USAAF veterans of an approximate number of fighters fitted with cameras, their answers were not very helpful, but they told me many of the american planes in fact had no gun cameras.

Any further information from members would be nice.

Ah: best pilot? Several hundreds of German experten.

You can rule out the bulk of soviet pilots, they relied heavily on partisans to have their claims confirmed. Also, they were subjected to tremendous pressure by those political felons attached to all armed branches of the Soviet Union, who would greet pilots returning from combat missions with questions such as "How many fascist snakes did you shoot down?".

If "none" would become the standard response to such questionings, the pilot could certainly fret about his future.

[loomaluftwaffe]

Finnih pilots made the best out of their prewar scrap

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well as I said before I like Hartmann the best and allways have, but in my opinion Heinz Baer is the best.

[lesofprimus]

And I agree that Bar was the best as well....

[Vassili Zaitzev]

Hey, did any of you guys mention Joe Foss? He was a marine fighter pilot in the pacific with 26 confirmed kills and a medal of honor recipient. Although Jimmy thach only shot down 5-7 japanese planes, but he thought up of the beam defense manuveur ( Thach weave). Anyway the poll is good and i wonder who will win

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It has all ready been decided with 224 votes for Erich Hartmann.

[lesofprimus]

Foss was on a previous Poll VZ, and recieved one vote, so he did not get transferred to this new one....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think this poll is pretty good and covers most of htem.

[lesofprimus]

Why thank you Adler, I agree, and the time it took me to put this thread together has paid off....

However, I still believe that Bar should be higher than Nowotny....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree as well. Baer in my opinion is the greatest, besides he did most of his kills on the West Front.