The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized....

evangilder · 06-05-2005, 10:10 PM

Great way to put that, Les.

marseille jr · 06-06-2005, 06:11 AM

heinz bar got shot down "only" 18 times ... what rules him out definitively of this discussion. Only marseille, bartels, Lang or Nowotny can be considered as true contenders for the title of best german fighter pilot ever. My opinion is that marseille, the UNRIVALLED virtuoso, wins.

Too bad Schnauffer is not considered here. Scoring 120+ victories at night is dazzling. He still is a notority in my home town among old people (sint-truiden - he was called the ghost of sint-truiden - also emil Lang crashed & lost his life here)

lesofprimus · 06-06-2005, 06:40 AM

Quote:

heinz bar got shot down "only" 18 times ... what rules him out definitively of this discussion.

How do u figure??? He fought on all fronts, flew all different aircraft, fought against everything the allies could through at him, and survived being shot down 18 times. Most pilots dont survive 1 shoot down...

Think about the different tactics he had to combat against... The different climates.... How many times was he outnumbered in the sky 6 to 1??? And he never perished.........

To me thats the sign of a great pilot, not someone who shoots down Scores of P-40 Warhawks.... Thats definatly a gunnery challenge there....

Not..

BTW, Rudorffer and Schnaufer were on an earlier poll, but didnt recieve any votes.......

Erich · 06-06-2005, 09:51 AM

true enough Marseille was the star of Afrika and shot down 76 P-40's..........big deal ! I know for a fact he was an excellent deflection shooter. His claims of 17 kills in one day is still suspect.

Heinz lived through the war and flew a variety of a/c much more than the pilots you mentioned who all fell for Germany .. Rudorffers jet kill claims are not verified. when asked about them he conveniently has shut up although he was more than open to talk about his days at the last when he was to form IV./JG 7 and co-exist with the night jet unit Kommando Welter.....it's all in our book.

My billing still goes with Heinz Bär, serving on all the fronts and taking out multiple 4 engine bombers, fighters, recon, twin engine........you name it.

marseille jr · 06-06-2005, 10:56 AM

"survived being shot down 18 times"

ok, let's call him the luckiest fighter pilot of all times then. Luck and quality are different though. I do pay my dues to bär, one of the top pilots of all times ... but he was lucky numerous times, he arrived with a pretty badly shot up aircraft many times and was downed 18 times ... during jochens 150 streak he was not downed once. And yes, lotsa tomahawks/kittyhawks, but more than 20 spits as well and lotsa hurries. Usually with no more than 15 rounds (!!!) on average in the end. Only a couple were bombers ... again this testifies how good he was, as 99% of his kills were fighter planes shot down in close combat (furballs) with much more nimble aircraft then his own friedrich, and vastly outnumbered. However, I do surmise that marseille wouldn't have survived the war ... I think he would have been transferred to Russia had he survived his technical "gustav" failure, bagging some 150-200 aircraft over there before returning to germany to deal with usaf bombers. I don't think his extremely individual style would have served him well there against mustangs and tempests. Maybe his unsurpassable deflection shooting would have done miracles in an me-262?

What about Otto Kittel? If my memory serves me well, he had never been bested in aerial combat during his 267 victories, except from the sturmo's rear gunner's bullet which killed him? Bad luck. That is worth mentioning too, no?

Anyway, all in all, is it really possible to bestow this kind of title upon people in these circumstances? After all, these are all just opinions, conjecture, wishes. I think no one can be the best in all areas. Marseille is unsurpassable in close dogfights but i don't think he would have stayed alive long against the americans in a bf 109, what for example Bär did . All of these guys were craftsman, virtuosos and artists. Determining which of them was the ultimate pilot is impossible.

The pic is the bu-mann (kurt bühligen). Underappreciated in my opinion. Anyone knows what happened to him after WWII ?

plan_D · 06-06-2005, 10:57 AM

Getting shot down means nothing. There's always times of bad luck. Why not mention Hartmann in that list of those not hit anyway, since he never crashed due to enemy action.

It also depends on your aircraft, Hubert Zemke came home no less than 12 times with damage to his aircraft. Probably damage that would have brought down any other fighter but he was in a Jug!

marseille jr · 06-06-2005, 01:27 PM

"Getting shot down means nothing. There's always times of bad luck. Why not mention Hartmann in that list of those not hit anyway, since he never crashed due to enemy action"

Getting shot down means a lot. One wrong bullet and one's history. Never getting shot down whilst plenty of shooting down yourself is a major and rare achievement. And yes, hartmann deserves mentioning here, as does Kittel and Marseille.

marseille jr · 06-06-2005, 01:36 PM

155 24.6.1944 7:18 P-51 9./JG 54 Évreux
156 24.6.1944 7:19 P-51 9./JG 54 Évreux
157 24.6.1944 7:21 P-51 9./JG 54 Évreux
158 24.6.1944 7:22 P-51 9./JG 54 Évreux

This is not bad hu for a fw-190A?
Achieved by the man who nailed 18 in one day

Erich · 06-06-2005, 01:46 PM

18.............maybe

Lang was good with III./JG 54 during the Normandie battles as III./JG 54 was the top scoring Luftw. outift there with over 100 victories

lets look at this whole picture in another way. What is listed as to pilots should be commented on and not others brought into the fray such as Lang or Kittel. I can think of some personal friends whom ought to be listed both US and German but they won't. Because of popularity back home and the myths surrounding many to this day, the pilot with the most victories from any side of the conflict is always chosen as the "greatest" pilot.

what nonsense..........

plan_D · 06-06-2005, 02:17 PM

Being shot down can sometimes be unavoided, it's called luck. For example being hit by AA is bad luck, you can't avoid it. All you can do is hope that it doesn't get you.

In a dogfight it's extremely hard to keep your eye on every single plane in the sky. There might be a stray stream of bullets that hits your aircraft. Not being shot is a rare achievement, but it's also luck because those people who never got shot down I can assure you got shot up, their aircraft just happened to hold together.

marseille jr · 06-06-2005, 05:40 PM

"There might be a stray stream of bullets that hits your aircraft. Not being shot is a rare achievement, but it's also luck because those people who never got shot down I can assure you got shot up, their aircraft just happened to hold together"

Do i detect wishful thinking here? sure it's partially luck, and partially prowess. Of course, a stray stream can always hit but will rarely tear up a plane. If someone is at the tail and you can't shake him off ...well down you go amidst wreckage... when you are able to either avoid someone at your tail (a la hartmann) or shake-him-off/outmanoeuver him (a la marseille), well that is called bein a class act.

I agree with the one who claimed people always look at numbers. Hartmann was a master, but I feel that the lead he has in the poll on other pilots is unrightful.

plan_D · 06-06-2005, 05:45 PM

No, I'm realistic. Being able to shake your enemy is one thing, it's not always a case of seeing your enemy though. You cannot act for yourself in combat, pilots act for one another. Single combat was not an act taken part in, in any air force except the Japanese.

Most of the time you're relying on your squadron, and more closely your wingman. If they fail, the odds are you're going to get shot up.

lesofprimus · 06-06-2005, 07:07 PM

OK, ive missed out on some of the story here, so ill back track some...

Bar flew a different kind of combat style, as oppsosed to The Hartmanns and the Marseilles' and the Wahtnots.... He wasnt a lone wolf... He flew in some engagements where there were so many planes in the sky, on fire/smoking/firing, that the chances of being bounced were unreal...

Thats what its all about guys..... Most of the times Bar was shot down, he was bounced..... I remember reading where Heinz Bar had lost several wingmen who were just blotted out of the sky......

There are a handful of guys, countem on 1 hand, who killed the ALL the best Allied Fighters in the World... Bar is one of em...

I rate Bar being the better fighter pilot over Kozhedub and Nishizawa... (The more u research, the more u learn...)

Quote:

I can think of some personal friends whom ought to be listed both US and German but they won't.

I could list my Grandfather, who I believe was unreal in a Corsair, but I wont..... Lang and Kittel were on a previous Poll and recieved 2 votes... COMBINED...

Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great... Lucky/Superb/Gifted/Mean... Those qualities, and more, made all these guys stand out from the rest... Some guys had bad luck, but were lucky enough to survive the Chute/Crash.....

Most guys werent...

And we recognize their combined greatness with polls and discussions like these...

FLYBOYJ · 06-06-2005, 07:26 PM

Plan D is rolling down the right track. Sure, there is an element of being able to avoid risk, if from the ground or air-to-air, but all of these great pilots we're talking about here fought within "a well oiled machine" with a lot of teamwork and discipline. I think what takes it to the next step is the legacy left behind. Bar Commanded JV-44 "The Squadron of Experts" and that in itself puts him a step above. He flew, developed the first jet tactics and walked away as a triple ace, to me that shows not only skill but innovativiness and super-human leadership!

By the way by his own modesty when interviewed in the post war years, he felt Hartmann and Marseille were the "best."

lesofprimus · 06-06-2005, 07:39 PM

If he couldnt vote for himself, modesty aside, could u see him picking a Non-German??? LOL...