 | The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized....| Polls Discuss The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized.... in the World War II - Aviation forums; Originally Posted by lesofprimus
If he couldnt vote for himself, modesty aside, could u see him picking a Non-German??? ... |
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View Poll Results: The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII.......... | |
Ivan Kozhedub, 62 Kills
|    | 101 | 7.92% | |
Alexandr Pokryshkin, 59 Kills
|    | 45 | 3.53% | |
Hans-Joachim Marseille, 158 Kills
|    | 177 | 13.88% | |
Erich Hartmann, 352 Kills
|    | 274 | 21.49% | |
Adolf Galland, 104 Kills
|    | 77 | 6.04% | |
Heinz Bar, 221 Kills
|    | 132 | 10.35% | |
Walter Nowotny, 259 Kills
| | 75 | 5.88% | |
Josef Priller, 101 Kills
| | 40 | 3.14% | |
Dick Bong, 40 Kills
| | 45 | 3.53% | |
David McCampbell, 34 Kills
| | 33 | 2.59% | |
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, 87 Kills
| | 66 | 5.18% | |
Saburo Sakai, 64 Kills
| | 24 | 1.88% | |
Marmaduke St. John Pattle, 62 Kills
| | 96 | 7.53% | |
Johnnie Johnson, 38 Kills
| | 50 | 3.92% | |
Thomas McGuire, 38 Kills
| | 40 | 3.14% | 
06-06-2005, 07:51 PM
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#76 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,505
Country:  | Quote: |
Originally Posted by lesofprimus If he couldnt vote for himself, modesty aside, could u see him picking a Non-German??? LOL... | NO WAY! 
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06-08-2005, 02:22 AM
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#77 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1
| [quote="lesofprimus"]Something called pilot skill........ How did so many Finnish pilots shoot down Bf-109's in their Brewster Buffalos???
Hello every1.
Im new in here, so sry all, if i dont do everything right. I found this site yesterday, so im not yet familiar with all this 
Actually, finns shoot down about 500 planes with only 40 Brewsters, including P-39:s, La5:s, Jak9:s. But when war against Germany started Sep.44, only few BW:s were in Lappland. They didnt shoot down any me109:s.
Finally, my opinion: best pilot in WW2 was Ilmari Juutilainen. He shot down 94 planes, without single hit to his own plane.
Hasse | |
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06-08-2005, 05:38 AM
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#78 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,507
Country: | Why is it that all our Finnish members that have ever replied to a thread such as this, always vote for Juutulainen???
He was a great pilot, and did some great things in some really outdated aircraft....... No doubt about his skill.....
And WELCOME hasse....
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06-08-2005, 06:35 AM
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#79 | | Your ad here. ;)
Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA
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Country: | Welcome hasse!
__________________  http://www.vg-photo.com Wherever their bones may lie, the courage of heroes is consecrated in the hearts and engraved in the history of the free. Lt Col Honner DSO MC, 39th Commander speaking of the dead from the battle of Kokoda. | |
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06-08-2005, 08:44 AM
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#80 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
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Country: | Welcome Hasse!
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06-08-2005, 10:21 AM
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#81 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 52
| Quote: |
By the way by his own modesty when interviewed in the post war years, he felt Hartmann and Marseille were the "best.
| modesty? ... that's ... brains  Quote: |
The more u research, the more u learn...
| And the more on gets stuck in his own opinions and refuses to look at it from another way. The most important scientific laws were all devised by scientists in their young and fresh years. I won't doubt researching, but it is a bit on the ambivalent side in this matter ... this ain't physics or mathematics. I've read opinions of many other "specialists", always Marseille, Hartmann or Nishizawa pop up there. Quote: |
Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great
| Yeah right. If one flies a poorly contrived aircraft and the wing falls of suddenly or the landing gear comes out (happened to Lang) during a dogfight ...you end up dead, even when named Marseille or Bär or Von Richthofen. | |
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06-08-2005, 11:53 AM
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#82 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,051
Country:  | Zemke got his P-51's wing sheared off by a storm, did he die? No.
__________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004  To those in that club. | |
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06-08-2005, 11:55 AM
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#83 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 12,505
Country: | [quote="marseille jr"]
modesty? ... that's ... brains
[quote]
No, it's modesty, graciousness and a sign of true leadership.
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06-08-2005, 01:37 PM
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#84 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,663
Country: | give it up ............ it's Heinz Bär !
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06-08-2005, 04:15 PM
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#85 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,507
Country: | Quote:
Quote:
The more u research, the more u learn...
And the more on gets stuck in his own opinions and refuses to look at it from another way.
| Are u calling me a moron??? With 12 posts under ur belt, thats about the biggest mistake u could make here.... Quote: |
The most important scientific laws were all devised by scientists in their young and fresh years.
| WTH does that have to do with researching a pilots accomplishments in WWII??? Quote: |
I've read opinions of many other "specialists", always Marseille, Hartmann or Nishizawa pop up there.
| Im not talking about "opinions", im talking about documented evidence of Heinz Bars' accomplishments in the pilot seat..... Quote: |
this ain't physics or mathematics.
| No shiit.... Quote:
Quote:
Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great
Yeah right. If one flies a poorly contrived aircraft and the wing falls of suddenly or the landing gear comes out (happened to Lang) during a dogfight ...you end up dead, even when named Marseille or Bär or Von Richthofen.
| Ur obviously trying to make a point there, but damn if i cant see it... Ur trying to compare faulty aircraft and bad luck to pilot skill???
Are u actually implying that the guys who flew combat missions for years and years werent all great pilots???
__________________ "This Was a Fight to The Death.... He's Out to Kill Me, and I'm Gonna Get Him..."
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06-08-2005, 06:16 PM
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#86 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 52
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Are u actually implying that the guys who flew combat missions for years and years werent all great pilots???
| on the contrary, I contend that some of them died before they could prove how great they were. Lang scored roughly 100 victories in two months time, including many p47 and p51 when suddenly in a dogfight his undercarriage fell out ... I mean, if his plane had been well contrived, who knows where he might have ended the war ... he didn't got the chance and not because HE made a mistake. That's my point here. Quote: |
No, it's modesty, graciousness and a sign of true leadership.
| and knowing it's place in history all too well ... If he really was so much better I don't see a reason why he would have belyingly claimed Hartmann Or Jochen being better ?? Quote: |
Are u calling me a moron??? With 12 posts under ur belt, thats about the biggest mistake u could make here....
| First and foremost I'm calling nobody a moron here and secondly, even hartmann had to start with his 1st victory and then his 2nd .... his 12th, .... to quote the legendary (american) phil ochs : 'let's not be narrow minded americans here'. Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right? Quote: |
Im not talking about "opinions", im talking about documented evidence of Heinz Bars' accomplishments in the pilot seat.....
| ...as if those 'other' opinions would be mere conjecture... Come on. It seems Bär has gotten his fair share of fans in here .... Quote: |
give it up ............ it's Heinz Bär !
| It's Marseille Sr. Even Bär himself admitted it.
Amen | |
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06-08-2005, 06:39 PM
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#87 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,663
Country: | kinda funny you keep posting pics of Rudi
yes Bär was a mild mannered man but a killer in the air. At least Bär was not egotistical as Marseille and many others. Bär wins by a landslide.
enough of this thread get on to some other threads and post
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06-08-2005, 07:36 PM
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#88 | | Minister of Whoopass
Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi
Posts: 12,507
Country: | Quote: |
on the contrary, I contend that some of them died before they could prove how great they were.
| I totally agree with u 100%, but please state it that ur original post, rather than making no sense... Quote: |
Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right?
| Hell Freakin Yea u are..................... Quote: |
It's Marseille Sr. Even Bär himself admitted it.
| No Gentleman or Great Military Leader would ever claim himself to be better than his peers...... Theres no honor in that... Honor the Dead... Quote: |
...as if those 'other' opinions would be mere conjecture... Come on.
| Since u havent done ur homework here, one of the more respected researchers in the world concerning the Luftwaffe happens to be involved in this discussion... Some of the stuff u have read concerning WWII aviation, he was responsible for researching...
Basically, I think u can take what erich says as the truth of the matter... It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???
__________________ "This Was a Fight to The Death.... He's Out to Kill Me, and I'm Gonna Get Him..."
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06-09-2005, 01:17 PM
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#89 | | Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 52
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kinda funny you keep posting pics of Rudi
| Lol. Them computer I'm currently using only has a few pics on the HD. Actually I almost ran out of pics. Time to land some new  Quote: |
yes Bär was a mild mannered man but a killer in the air. At least Bär was not egotistical as Marseille and many others. Bär wins by a landslide.
| Marseille was an egotistical man in the air, that's right. But on the other hand, he did care about his men as well, a lot even. I also overtly admit that I don't believe he would have survived against the americans with this kind of individual behaviour. I accept that Bär, who was after all older and more mature/experienced, must have been a much completer pilot & teamplayer, if less an artist/virtuoso. Knockin down half a dozen of byrds per sortie with unbelievable deflection shooting and averaging 15 bullets per kill without getting shot yourself at age 21/22 does earn him the titel of unrivalled virtuoso in the air though (opinion of another expert, Galland). Unrivalled means no one can surpass him right? I think they were both geniuses albeit different kind of pilots. Comparison is a bit false as Marseille never got the chance to fly reichsverteitigung (dunno if it's written correct) or an me-262 or a fw-190A. So we will never know how 'complete' he might have become ... after all, he "died but a kid". Quote: |
I totally agree with u 100%, but please state it that ur original post, rather than making no sense...
| I did state that. Maybe it's my 'poor' english. I'm a non native english speaker as you might have noticed... Quote: |
Basically, I think u can take what erich says as the truth of the matter... It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???
| When einstein talked about relativity and mass-energy equivalence for the first time he was derided by ALL leading TOP scientists. I guess what you say to me was said to Einstein 1000 times back then. 40 years later hiroshima & Nagasaki got a taste of relativity. I hope you get my point this time (= nobody is always right).
Hey Primus, isn't discussing what a thread is all about? So don't execute me pls 
btw the cockpit is a fw-190 | |
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06-09-2005, 01:34 PM
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#90 | | the old Sage
Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere
Posts: 8,663
Country: | well in this I will agree with you.
Marseille had he been given the chance to fly a Bf 109G-6 or AS version or G-10, G-14 may very well have been overwhelmed and shot down by P-51 escorts. I could easily visualize his individual performane against 1 P-51 at a time but 6-10 would be different story. As well as flying a Kanonboot and flying in wedge formation something that would of been distasteful to one whom performed better without the wingman present
literally I./JG 27, his gruppe was slaughtered several times over during the trying late 43 through all of 44 months: Reichsverteidigung
when I first got interested in Luftwaffe a/c, pilots and tactics in the early 1960's JG 27's presence in Afrika was the first on the top of my lists of interests.......
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