The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized.... - Page 6 - Aircraft of World War II

FLYBOYJ · 06-06-2005, 07:51 PM

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Originally Posted by lesofprimus

If he couldnt vote for himself, modesty aside, could u see him picking a Non-German??? LOL...

NO WAY!

hasse · 06-08-2005, 02:22 AM

[quote="lesofprimus"]Something called pilot skill........ How did so many Finnish pilots shoot down Bf-109's in their Brewster Buffalos???

Hello every1.
Im new in here, so sry all, if i dont do everything right. I found this site yesterday, so im not yet familiar with all this

Actually, finns shoot down about 500 planes with only 40 Brewsters, including P-39:s, La5:s, Jak9:s. But when war against Germany started Sep.44, only few BW:s were in Lappland. They didnt shoot down any me109:s.
Finally, my opinion: best pilot in WW2 was Ilmari Juutilainen. He shot down 94 planes, without single hit to his own plane.

Hasse

lesofprimus · 06-08-2005, 05:38 AM

Why is it that all our Finnish members that have ever replied to a thread such as this, always vote for Juutulainen???

He was a great pilot, and did some great things in some really outdated aircraft....... No doubt about his skill.....

And WELCOME hasse....

evangilder · 06-08-2005, 06:35 AM

Welcome hasse!

FLYBOYJ · 06-08-2005, 08:44 AM

Welcome Hasse!

marseille jr · 06-08-2005, 10:21 AM

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By the way by his own modesty when interviewed in the post war years, he felt Hartmann and Marseille were the "best.

modesty? ... that's ... brains

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The more u research, the more u learn...

And the more on gets stuck in his own opinions and refuses to look at it from another way. The most important scientific laws were all devised by scientists in their young and fresh years. I won't doubt researching, but it is a bit on the ambivalent side in this matter ... this ain't physics or mathematics. I've read opinions of many other "specialists", always Marseille, Hartmann or Nishizawa pop up there.

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Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great

Yeah right. If one flies a poorly contrived aircraft and the wing falls of suddenly or the landing gear comes out (happened to Lang) during a dogfight ...you end up dead, even when named Marseille or Bär or Von Richthofen.

plan_D · 06-08-2005, 11:53 AM

Zemke got his P-51's wing sheared off by a storm, did he die? No.

FLYBOYJ · 06-08-2005, 11:55 AM

[quote="marseille jr"]
modesty? ... that's ... brains

[quote]

No, it's modesty, graciousness and a sign of true leadership.

Erich · 06-08-2005, 01:37 PM

give it up ............ it's Heinz Bär !

lesofprimus · 06-08-2005, 04:15 PM

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Quote:
The more u research, the more u learn...

And the more on gets stuck in his own opinions and refuses to look at it from another way.

Are u calling me a moron??? With 12 posts under ur belt, thats about the biggest mistake u could make here....

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The most important scientific laws were all devised by scientists in their young and fresh years.

WTH does that have to do with researching a pilots accomplishments in WWII???

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I've read opinions of many other "specialists", always Marseille, Hartmann or Nishizawa pop up there.

Im not talking about "opinions", im talking about documented evidence of Heinz Bars' accomplishments in the pilot seat.....

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this ain't physics or mathematics.

No shiit....

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Quote:
Point is, if u survived long enough in the air, u were great

Yeah right. If one flies a poorly contrived aircraft and the wing falls of suddenly or the landing gear comes out (happened to Lang) during a dogfight ...you end up dead, even when named Marseille or Bär or Von Richthofen.

Ur obviously trying to make a point there, but damn if i cant see it... Ur trying to compare faulty aircraft and bad luck to pilot skill???

Are u actually implying that the guys who flew combat missions for years and years werent all great pilots???

marseille jr · 06-08-2005, 06:16 PM

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Are u actually implying that the guys who flew combat missions for years and years werent all great pilots???

on the contrary, I contend that some of them died before they could prove how great they were. Lang scored roughly 100 victories in two months time, including many p47 and p51 when suddenly in a dogfight his undercarriage fell out ... I mean, if his plane had been well contrived, who knows where he might have ended the war ... he didn't got the chance and not because HE made a mistake. That's my point here.

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No, it's modesty, graciousness and a sign of true leadership.

and knowing it's place in history all too well ... If he really was so much better I don't see a reason why he would have belyingly claimed Hartmann Or Jochen being better ??

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Are u calling me a moron??? With 12 posts under ur belt, thats about the biggest mistake u could make here....

First and foremost I'm calling nobody a moron here and secondly, even hartmann had to start with his 1st victory and then his 2nd .... his 12th, .... to quote the legendary (american) phil ochs : 'let's not be narrow minded americans here'. Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right?

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Im not talking about "opinions", im talking about documented evidence of Heinz Bars' accomplishments in the pilot seat.....

...as if those 'other' opinions would be mere conjecture... Come on. It seems Bär has gotten his fair share of fans in here ....

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give it up ............ it's Heinz Bär !

It's Marseille Sr. Even Bär himself admitted it.
Amen

Erich · 06-08-2005, 06:39 PM

kinda funny you keep posting pics of Rudi

yes Bär was a mild mannered man but a killer in the air. At least Bär was not egotistical as Marseille and many others. Bär wins by a landslide.

enough of this thread get on to some other threads and post

lesofprimus · 06-08-2005, 07:36 PM

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on the contrary, I contend that some of them died before they could prove how great they were.

I totally agree with u 100%, but please state it that ur original post, rather than making no sense...

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Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right?

Hell Freakin Yea u are.....................

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It's Marseille Sr. Even Bär himself admitted it.

No Gentleman or Great Military Leader would ever claim himself to be better than his peers...... Theres no honor in that... Honor the Dead...

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...as if those 'other' opinions would be mere conjecture... Come on.

Since u havent done ur homework here, one of the more respected researchers in the world concerning the Luftwaffe happens to be involved in this discussion... Some of the stuff u have read concerning WWII aviation, he was responsible for researching...

Basically, I think u can take what erich says as the truth of the matter... It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???

marseille jr · 06-09-2005, 01:17 PM

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kinda funny you keep posting pics of Rudi

Lol. Them computer I'm currently using only has a few pics on the HD. Actually I almost ran out of pics. Time to land some new

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yes Bär was a mild mannered man but a killer in the air. At least Bär was not egotistical as Marseille and many others. Bär wins by a landslide.

Marseille was an egotistical man in the air, that's right. But on the other hand, he did care about his men as well, a lot even. I also overtly admit that I don't believe he would have survived against the americans with this kind of individual behaviour. I accept that Bär, who was after all older and more mature/experienced, must have been a much completer pilot & teamplayer, if less an artist/virtuoso. Knockin down half a dozen of byrds per sortie with unbelievable deflection shooting and averaging 15 bullets per kill without getting shot yourself at age 21/22 does earn him the titel of unrivalled virtuoso in the air though (opinion of another expert, Galland). Unrivalled means no one can surpass him right? I think they were both geniuses albeit different kind of pilots. Comparison is a bit false as Marseille never got the chance to fly reichsverteitigung (dunno if it's written correct) or an me-262 or a fw-190A. So we will never know how 'complete' he might have become ... after all, he "died but a kid".

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I totally agree with u 100%, but please state it that ur original post, rather than making no sense...

I did state that. Maybe it's my 'poor' english. I'm a non native english speaker as you might have noticed...

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Basically, I think u can take what erich says as the truth of the matter... It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???

When einstein talked about relativity and mass-energy equivalence for the first time he was derided by ALL leading TOP scientists. I guess what you say to me was said to Einstein 1000 times back then. 40 years later hiroshima & Nagasaki got a taste of relativity. I hope you get my point this time (= nobody is always right).

Hey Primus, isn't discussing what a thread is all about? So don't execute me pls

btw the cockpit is a fw-190

Erich · 06-09-2005, 01:34 PM

well in this I will agree with you.

Marseille had he been given the chance to fly a Bf 109G-6 or AS version or G-10, G-14 may very well have been overwhelmed and shot down by P-51 escorts. I could easily visualize his individual performane against 1 P-51 at a time but 6-10 would be different story. As well as flying a Kanonboot and flying in wedge formation something that would of been distasteful to one whom performed better without the wingman present

literally I./JG 27, his gruppe was slaughtered several times over during the trying late 43 through all of 44 months: Reichsverteidigung

when I first got interested in Luftwaffe a/c, pilots and tactics in the early 1960's JG 27's presence in Afrika was the first on the top of my lists of interests.......

View Poll Results: The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII..........
Ivan Kozhedub, 62 Kills	105	7.78%
Alexandr Pokryshkin, 59 Kills	46	3.41%
Hans-Joachim Marseille, 158 Kills	195	14.46%
Erich Hartmann, 352 Kills	304	22.54%
Adolf Galland, 104 Kills	83	6.15%
Heinz Bar, 221 Kills	136	10.08%
Walter Nowotny, 259 Kills	75	5.56%
Josef Priller, 101 Kills	40	2.97%
Dick Bong, 40 Kills	47	3.48%
David McCampbell, 34 Kills	35	2.59%
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, 87 Kills	67	4.97%
Saburo Sakai, 64 Kills	27	2.00%
Marmaduke St. John Pattle, 62 Kills	96	7.12%
Johnnie Johnson, 38 Kills	53	3.93%
Thomas McGuire, 38 Kills	40	2.97%
Voters: 1349. You may not vote on this poll

06-08-2005, 05:38 AM	#78
lesofprimus Minister of Whoopass Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi Posts: 18,465	Why is it that all our Finnish members that have ever replied to a thread such as this, always vote for Juutulainen??? He was a great pilot, and did some great things in some really outdated aircraft....... No doubt about his skill..... And WELCOME hasse.... __________________ My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk My 1/32nd Rendition of His Corsair: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/2-p...3-a-20416.html

06-08-2005, 06:35 AM	#79
evangilder "Shooter" Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Moorpark, CA Posts: 15,421	Welcome hasse! __________________ For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return. Leonardo Da Vinci

06-08-2005, 08:44 AM	#80
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,881	Welcome Hasse! __________________ > I Support Doug Gillis <

06-08-2005, 11:53 AM	#82
plan_D Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 11,978	Zemke got his P-51's wing sheared off by a storm, did he die? No. __________________ "When you go home tomorrow, don't expect anyone to know what you have been through. Even if they did know, most people probably wouldn't care anyway. Some of you may get the medals you deserve, many more of you will not. But remember this, all of you are now members of the front-line club, and that is the most exclusive club in the world." - Lt. Col. Matthew Maer CO 1st Battalion, the Princess of Wale's Royal Regiment. Camp Abu Naji, Oct. 2004 To those in that club.

06-08-2005, 02:22 AM	#77
hasse Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1	[quote="lesofprimus"]Something called pilot skill........ How did so many Finnish pilots shoot down Bf-109's in their Brewster Buffalos??? Hello every1. Im new in here, so sry all, if i dont do everything right. I found this site yesterday, so im not yet familiar with all this Actually, finns shoot down about 500 planes with only 40 Brewsters, including P-39:s, La5:s, Jak9:s. But when war against Germany started Sep.44, only few BW:s were in Lappland. They didnt shoot down any me109:s. Finally, my opinion: best pilot in WW2 was Ilmari Juutilainen. He shot down 94 planes, without single hit to his own plane. Hasse

06-08-2005, 11:55 AM	#83
FLYBOYJ IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 16,881	[quote="marseille jr"] modesty? ... that's ... brains [quote] No, it's modesty, graciousness and a sign of true leadership. __________________ > I Support Doug Gillis <

06-08-2005, 01:37 PM	#84
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,113	give it up ............ it's Heinz Bär ! __________________ Rip it up !

06-08-2005, 06:39 PM	#87
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,113	kinda funny you keep posting pics of Rudi yes Bär was a mild mannered man but a killer in the air. At least Bär was not egotistical as Marseille and many others. Bär wins by a landslide. enough of this thread get on to some other threads and post __________________ Rip it up !

06-09-2005, 01:34 PM	#90
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,113	well in this I will agree with you. Marseille had he been given the chance to fly a Bf 109G-6 or AS version or G-10, G-14 may very well have been overwhelmed and shot down by P-51 escorts. I could easily visualize his individual performane against 1 P-51 at a time but 6-10 would be different story. As well as flying a Kanonboot and flying in wedge formation something that would of been distasteful to one whom performed better without the wingman present literally I./JG 27, his gruppe was slaughtered several times over during the trying late 43 through all of 44 months: Reichsverteidigung when I first got interested in Luftwaffe a/c, pilots and tactics in the early 1960's JG 27's presence in Afrika was the first on the top of my lists of interests....... __________________ Rip it up !

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