The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized....

lesofprimus · 06-09-2005, 05:38 PM

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Hey Primus, isn't discussing what a thread is all about? So don't execute me pls

Jesus Christ dude... YES IT IS......... Did u even bother to read my post above???

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Everyone is entitled to make a stand here right?

Hell Freakin Yea u are.....................

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It is after all an opinion, so really, who's opinion is wrong???

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I hope you get my point this time (= nobody is always right).

The point is u didnt make a point..... Einstein wasnt guessing, and it wasnt his opinion either... He was a scientist... This is not science...

plan_D · 06-10-2005, 02:46 AM

An opinion cannot be wrong. An opinion is someone's feeling towards the matter, it's not information or facts. Therefore, it cannot be wrong. Einstein didn't have an opinion, he had a theory based upon facts.

marseille jr · 06-10-2005, 06:06 AM

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Marseille had he been given the chance to fly a Bf 109G-6 or AS version or G-10, G-14 may very well have been overwhelmed and shot down by P-51 escorts. I could easily visualize his individual performane against 1 P-51 at a time but 6-10 would be different story. As well as flying a Kanonboot and flying in wedge formation something that would of been distasteful to one whom performed better without the wingman present

Exactly. With an inferior aircraft he would have to climb up to substantial altitude, tangle with the ennemy and return. I can envisage him being chased by p51 or p47's in a high speed dive and take hits... I'm sure he would have done miracles against 2 or 3 but against many more he would have succumbed sooner or later. At the end of his career in a close dogfight he often engaged 12 to 16 planes on his own and bring 4 or 5 down. But diving away from p51's or p47's isn't exactly dogfighting. But again, Jochen wasn't stupid. Maybe he would have set his personal ambitions aside ... He would have been 24/25 instead of 22. We'll never know what would have happened. Ah it's such a waste. He died in such a silly manner while he still had leaps of maturing ahead of him. RIP.

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An opinion cannot be wrong. An opinion is someone's feeling towards the matter, it's not information or facts. Therefore, it cannot be wrong. Einstein didn't have an opinion, he had a theory based upon facts.

Oh well. Opinions can be wrong. If my opinion is that hitler himself was the best fighter pilot ...well that is as wrong as wrong can be. Einstein's theory was largely based upon assumptions (amongst them that lightspeed was constant). Of course these brilliant assumptions turned out to be right, as a consequence of that his utmost brilliant theory as well. But this isn't the place to talk/discuss about quantummechanics or relativity. I know other sites for that ...

plan_D · 06-10-2005, 06:25 AM

No, by saying that you think Hitler was the greatest fighter pilot ever would make you stupid. Opinions are normally backed up by facts, that's where the opinion comes from. The opinion itself cannot be wrong, the information that created that opinion can.

Don't try and tell me about my own language.

lesofprimus · 06-10-2005, 06:29 AM

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Don't try and tell me about my own language.

I dont know if that deserves a can or a kick......

Hmmmmmmmmmm...

Nonskimmer · 06-10-2005, 12:18 PM

Yeah, I'd say that's a nutcracker.

marseille jr · 06-10-2005, 02:25 PM

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The opinion itself cannot be wrong, the information that created that opinion can.

Opinions are always coloured by one's own tastes and preferences. Ever heard of a self fulfilling prophecy? Btw, not all info is clear and easy to understand. Different people do interprete information differently, and draw different conclusions. Some of those can be nonsense.

Easy to see why they called Lang 'bully (bulldog) ' right?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-11-2005, 10:48 AM

Well even though Hartmann is my favorite I have to go with Heinz Baer, Priller or Nowotny.

fukuto · 06-17-2005, 01:16 AM

howdy boys,
i couldnt help get sucked into this thread after i voted. the one guy who was considered to be the best in the RAF at the time, the only allied pilot to outscore his axis counterpart it any theatre, was screwball beurling.
http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/beurling.htm
In the air over Malta, the war in africa (and for much needed oil) was decided. Beurling was the top scorer with 28. his german top rival was Gerhard michalski with 26. Bar, who lead for a time in this theater, scored 5. the RAF boys in Malta were in for some serious fighting. always greatly outnumbered, malnourished and suffering from the "malta dog" this war during the siege was rough. it was known as the "most bombed place on earth". the german failure to smash malta was the true beginning of the end for the germans. Rommel was denied his much needed supplies and germany was deied its much needed oil. Galland said to hitler when asked why malta was not defeated,"the English fight well with their backs to the wall"
in malta there were no super-scorers, just lots of dieing. competition was too stiff.
Today, beurling is all but forgotten because of his "bad boy" ways and because he decided to fight for isreal in 1948 and its suspected by some that he was killed by the secret service while on ruete.
In any event, during the war, in the RAF anyway, it was generally felt that he was the best. best eyes, best shot, best pilot.

but, as far as the numbers go, how bout these arguments ?
hartmann - 352 kills in 1450 some mission
nowotny - 250 kills in 442 missions but earlier in the war
or the greatest mission/kill man of all
Gunther Scheel 71 in 70 missions

Hartmann though, man, never hit by another aircraft's bullets, never lost a wingman, fought day after day way outnumbered, 10 years in russian gulag, lived to tell !!
gotta be beurling or hartmann !

FLYBOYJ · 06-17-2005, 08:26 AM

Great stuff fukuto and welcome. Beurling - great pilot but a bit eccentric to say the least.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-17-2005, 11:22 AM

Welcome and great post.

The one thing though is Rommel and the Afrika Korps in N. Afrika were not there for oil. If they were after oil they would have gone to the middle east. Basically they were there to help out the Italians and tie up the British so they could not be elsewhere.

I may be wrong but if I am correct there were aces that scored higher in the N. Afrika and Malta areas. For example:

Major Joachim Muenchenberg had 31 of his 102 kills were in this Theatre.

Major Werner Schroer had 61 kills.

ricardo · 06-17-2005, 02:45 PM

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unnerving Schroer to the point that he ran for home.

Thats a bunch of crap... I doubt seriously that that was the case......[/quote]

Nouuuu.... Clive Caldwell as a fact DID NOT SHOT DOWN WERNER SCHROER'S WINGMAN... neither he scared Schroer to the point he ran for home. This is not the real story.

Clive Caldwell was attacked and his aircraft caught flames. He went down in a violent slip and then pull out and blacked out due to the recovering from the ensuing dive. His attackers disengage (Schroer and his wingman) and Schroer claimed a victory as he saw Caldwell's TOMAHAWK AK493 went down in flames.

When Caldwell recovered, he pulled up to bale out but the fire suddenly died out, so he decided to attempt a landing. On his way home he found some Bf109 so he climb and dive and shot down one of the enemies.

Please see OSPREY AIRCRAFT OF THE ACES #38 (TOMAHAWK AND KITTYHAWK ACES OF THE RAF AND COMMONWEALTH) page 12 & 13.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 06-19-2005, 07:06 AM

Osprey Books are not the best sources for information. Great pics though.

-JJH- · 01-10-2006, 09:43 AM

Hey, where is Eino Ilmari Juutilainen?

I'd say he should be up there too, after all he is Finnish Air Force top ace with 94 1/6 kills. He also flew both in Winter War and in Continuation War. In addition, no Russian pilot EVER managed to hit his aircraft, all damage that his aircraft suffered was by flak!

-JJ-

Hunter368 · 01-10-2006, 10:47 AM

Nice thread I was thinking of starting one just like it, now I don't I just have to read 6 pages and then I will post. Sweet, good job Les.