The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII... Finalized.... - Page 9 - Aircraft of World War II

Erich · 01-12-2006, 07:50 PM

personally I can think of several friend/night fighter aces that were just as good but in engaging in a more complex and possibly dynamic way of fighting.

As I mentioned earlier today a total score no matter how high does not mean you are the best. In fact it must be regarded as who is ? probably cannot really be put in words. all the aces on the list via the first page deserve their recognition in the service of their country

lesofprimus · 01-12-2006, 08:11 PM

Erich, I agree with u on the Nightfighters, some of them were truly excellent pilots...

But this is about fighter pilots, and sneaking up on an unsuspecting Lancaster at 1 o'clock in the morning isnt really about being a fighter pilot, just being an unbelieveable pilot...

I dunno, reading about Schnaufer and his victories is truly a testament to the outstanding qualities of certain Nightfighter pilots, but to compare that to what Bar did in all the theatres that he operated in is like comparing Kiwi Fruit to Irish Soda Bread...

It all comes down to personal choice, and I dont think Hartmann and his target rich enviornment really proved all that much other than that there were alot of Russian fighters in the air....

Erich · 01-12-2006, 08:20 PM

Les many of the nf's were first ZG FIGHTER PILOTS, and if you think about that come late war yes indeed there were combats with Mossies, Beaus and P-61's; turns circles, corkscrews and BLAM, someone has to fall or limp home hurt quite possibly with dead aboard. some of the nf cranked up hundreds of missions on both the western and eastern fronts, and then of all things, something that the day fighter boys did not have to do, but the nf's had to perform day time ground attack duties in slow moving twin engine fighters equipped with bombs knowing full well they could be taken out by Allied escorts, ground based Allied AA. compare that insanity with the German/US/RAF/or Soviet day fighters whom never had to perform stupid acts of flying night ground attack or evening missions. Obviously you can see the superior well roundedness of the nf individuals many of them coming from KG bomber gruppen flying day/night missions, outnumbered with horrid fighters flying overhead.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-14-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by syscom3

Shouldnt one way of determing who was the best among the aces is to compare their kill rate per sortie where combat occured?

I disagree because as Erich said maybe they were in just a target rich environment. You also have to look at the skill of the pilots they were flying against. I believe it comes down to skill and in my opinion that goes to Heinz Bar like Les said. The man was a great pilot.

Hunter368 · 01-20-2006, 10:22 PM

Ok here is my thoughts on it.

Galland-Great leader & pilot, all his kills in the west (104) including 7 in the ME 262. Not bad

Molders-Another great leader & pilot, 115 kills total (33 in the east), a real innovator in tactics and a inspiration to his men.

Hartmann-A real inspiration to his men, started later in the war when Russian pilots were not so easy to kill, never lost a wing-man. He has real situational awareness in battle to never to lose a wing-man. More kills than anyone else 352 kills all in the east. A real hunter in the skies.

Heinz Baer-220 kills (79 kills in east, rest in the west) He served in France, BoB, East, North Africa, Mediterranean, Western fronts. Alot of pilots excelled on one front and when transferred to another front they had trouble, he never suffered that problem, he excelled on every front. Shot down 16 4 engine bombers, 16 with ME262. This man went from start to finish and did it all on all fronts. He was shot down 18 times during the war.

Erich Rudorffer-222 kills (136 kills in the east, rest in the west only slightly less in the west than Baer) He served in North Africa, France, BoB, Western fronts. Like Baer alot of pilots excelled on one front and when transferred to another front they had trouble, he never suffered that problem, he excelled on every front. Shot down 10 4 engine bombers, 12 with the ME262. This man started in 1940 and when to the end and did it all on all fronts. He was shot down 16 times during the war.

Who is the greatest in my mind? Difficult choice but I think it comes down to two....Baer and Rudorffer in my mind. The others are great also but I think it is almost a tie between Baer and Rudorffer their careers almost mirror each other, kills on each front almost exactly the same. In the end I have to call the greatest ever would be Baer by a hair over Rudorffer.

kiwimac · 01-22-2006, 03:13 AM

Hartmann for me.

Kiwimac

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-22-2006, 06:37 AM

I go for Baer and Hartmann, allways have and allways will. Hartmann being my favorite and Baer being the best in my opinoin and second favorite. Good annalysis up there also Hunter.

Hunter368 · 01-22-2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

I go for Baer and Hartmann, allways have and allways will. Hartmann being my favorite and Baer being the best in my opinoin and second favorite. Good annalysis up there also Hunter.

Thanks, Baer and Rudorffer are basically close to a tie but I have to give it to Baer for a few small reasons.

1) Baer missed action on two different times (for a prolonged time) due to injuries. So he still amassed the totals that he did with missing time.
2) Baer started in 1939, Rudorffer in 1940, both lasted until wars end. So Baer was a true first to last and survived longer. (by a hair true)
3)Baer shot down 16 4 engine bombers to Rudorffer's 10 4 engine bombers. Charging into those bombers must of been like charging into the gates of hell.
4)Baer shot down 16 planes in the ME262 compared to Rudorffer's 12 kills. Baer's 16 kills in the ME262 made him the leading jet ace in WW2 and also until 1973 the leading jet ace of all nations.

Thats why I name Baer best ace of all time.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-23-2006, 12:17 PM

My personal top are:

1. Hartmann
2. Baer
3. Nowotney
4. Galland

Baer for though is the over all fighter pilot of the war.

Hunter368 · 01-23-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

My personal top are:

1. Hartmann
2. Baer
3. Nowotney
4. Galland

Baer for though is the over all fighter pilot of the war.

Very good pics also.

CurzonDax · 01-23-2006, 01:20 PM

My question is this, without again sound pro-US, but its a question I have always had since a child. Why does everyone seem to forget the US aces. While I did vote for Hartmann, my fav Luftwaffe ace, is that US aces are not as romantic or didn't shoot down a million planes. I hope I don't sound pissy, cause I am not, its just I have been curious since a child.

My top 10 in no particuar order:
1. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington
2. Chuck Yeager
3. Hubert Zemke
4. Francis "Gabby" Gabresky
5. Tommy Blackburn
6. Tex Hill
7. Bud Mahurin
8. George Welch
9. Joe Foss
10. Butch O'Hare

:{)

lesofprimus · 01-23-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Baer's 16 kills in the ME262 made him the leading jet ace in WW2 and also until 1973 the leading jet ace of all nations.

If I'm not mistaken, there were a couple of Russians and 1 American in Korea that scored 16 or more kills in Korea.... Joseph McConnell had 16 kills by 5/18/1953, with the Top Scorers being Evgeni Pepelyaev and Nick Sutyagin with 23 kills....

And once again for the record, Heinz Baer in my book is just about unmatched in this catagory....

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 01-23-2006, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CurzonDax

My question is this, without again sound pro-US, but its a question I have always had since a child. Why does everyone seem to forget the US aces. While I did vote for Hartmann, my fav Luftwaffe ace, is that US aces are not as romantic or didn't shoot down a million planes. I hope I don't sound pissy, cause I am not, its just I have been curious since a child.

My top 10 in no particuar order:
1. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington
2. Chuck Yeager
3. Hubert Zemke
4. Francis "Gabby" Gabresky
5. Tommy Blackburn
6. Tex Hill
7. Bud Mahurin
8. George Welch
9. Joe Foss
10. Butch O'Hare

:{)

No there plenty of great american fighter pilots. I happen to really like Pappy Boyington. He is my favorite American Ace. The only reason that I really go for the Luftwaffe aces is because they did what they did at increadable odds.

evangilder · 01-23-2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CurzonDax

My question is this, without again sound pro-US, but its a question I have always had since a child. Why does everyone seem to forget the US aces. While I did vote for Hartmann, my fav Luftwaffe ace, is that US aces are not as romantic or didn't shoot down a million planes. I hope I don't sound pissy, cause I am not, its just I have been curious since a child.

My top 10 in no particuar order:
1. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington
2. Chuck Yeager
3. Hubert Zemke
4. Francis "Gabby" Gabresky
5. Tommy Blackburn
6. Tex Hill
7. Bud Mahurin
8. George Welch
9. Joe Foss
10. Butch O'Hare

:{)

Interesting list, but I find it curious that Dick Bong and Tom McGuire are not on that list.

CurzonDax · 01-23-2006, 02:42 PM

Interesting list, but I find it curious that Dick Bong and Tom McGuire are not on that list.[/quote]

The reason why they are not there, and this list dates back to my childhood, I thought thier exploits were boring. As an adult I admire them but they are not my fav. To me, and to a certain point that is still true today, they are just pilots, they did not seem to have the charisma that the others had. I mean Pappy had a terrible but addictive series done about him, Yeager broke the sound barrier, Tex was a Flying Tiger, Gabby fought in the Spanish Civil War, etc, etc, etc. Bong and McGuire to me were boring.

:{)

View Poll Results: The Greatest Fighter Pilot of WWII..........
Ivan Kozhedub, 62 Kills	105	7.78%
Alexandr Pokryshkin, 59 Kills	46	3.41%
Hans-Joachim Marseille, 158 Kills	195	14.46%
Erich Hartmann, 352 Kills	304	22.54%
Adolf Galland, 104 Kills	83	6.15%
Heinz Bar, 221 Kills	136	10.08%
Walter Nowotny, 259 Kills	75	5.56%
Josef Priller, 101 Kills	40	2.97%
Dick Bong, 40 Kills	47	3.48%
David McCampbell, 34 Kills	35	2.59%
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, 87 Kills	67	4.97%
Saburo Sakai, 64 Kills	27	2.00%
Marmaduke St. John Pattle, 62 Kills	96	7.12%
Johnnie Johnson, 38 Kills	53	3.93%
Thomas McGuire, 38 Kills	40	2.97%
Voters: 1349. You may not vote on this poll

01-12-2006, 08:11 PM	#122
lesofprimus Minister of Whoopass Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Long Island Native in Mississippi Posts: 18,459	Erich, I agree with u on the Nightfighters, some of them were truly excellent pilots... But this is about fighter pilots, and sneaking up on an unsuspecting Lancaster at 1 o'clock in the morning isnt really about being a fighter pilot, just being an unbelieveable pilot... I dunno, reading about Schnaufer and his victories is truly a testament to the outstanding qualities of certain Nightfighter pilots, but to compare that to what Bar did in all the theatres that he operated in is like comparing Kiwi Fruit to Irish Soda Bread... It all comes down to personal choice, and I dont think Hartmann and his target rich enviornment really proved all that much other than that there were alot of Russian fighters in the air.... __________________ My IL2 Video Tribute to My Grandfather: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtzN5RuNNJk My 1/32nd Rendition of His Corsair: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/2-p...3-a-20416.html

01-20-2006, 10:22 PM	#125
Hunter368 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Winnipeg Posts: 2,240	Ok here is my thoughts on it. Galland-Great leader & pilot, all his kills in the west (104) including 7 in the ME 262. Not bad Molders-Another great leader & pilot, 115 kills total (33 in the east), a real innovator in tactics and a inspiration to his men. Hartmann-A real inspiration to his men, started later in the war when Russian pilots were not so easy to kill, never lost a wing-man. He has real situational awareness in battle to never to lose a wing-man. More kills than anyone else 352 kills all in the east. A real hunter in the skies. Heinz Baer-220 kills (79 kills in east, rest in the west) He served in France, BoB, East, North Africa, Mediterranean, Western fronts. Alot of pilots excelled on one front and when transferred to another front they had trouble, he never suffered that problem, he excelled on every front. Shot down 16 4 engine bombers, 16 with ME262. This man went from start to finish and did it all on all fronts. He was shot down 18 times during the war. Erich Rudorffer-222 kills (136 kills in the east, rest in the west only slightly less in the west than Baer) He served in North Africa, France, BoB, Western fronts. Like Baer alot of pilots excelled on one front and when transferred to another front they had trouble, he never suffered that problem, he excelled on every front. Shot down 10 4 engine bombers, 12 with the ME262. This man started in 1940 and when to the end and did it all on all fronts. He was shot down 16 times during the war. Who is the greatest in my mind? Difficult choice but I think it comes down to two....Baer and Rudorffer in my mind. The others are great also but I think it is almost a tie between Baer and Rudorffer their careers almost mirror each other, kills on each front almost exactly the same. In the end I have to call the greatest ever would be Baer by a hair over Rudorffer. __________________ "Ivan the Terrible or Russian Achilles" Ivan Kozhedub - Hero of the USSR (x3), Order of Lenin (x2), Order of Red Banner (x7), Order of Alexander Nevsky, Order of the Great Patriotic War (x2), Order of the Red Star (x2), 62 kills during 1943-1945

01-22-2006, 03:13 AM	#126
kiwimac Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Deepest Darkest NZ Posts: 1,131	Hartmann for me. Kiwimac __________________

01-22-2006, 06:37 AM	#127
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 34,066	I go for Baer and Hartmann, allways have and allways will. Hartmann being my favorite and Baer being the best in my opinoin and second favorite. Good annalysis up there also Hunter. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

01-12-2006, 07:50 PM	#121
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,109	personally I can think of several friend/night fighter aces that were just as good but in engaging in a more complex and possibly dynamic way of fighting. As I mentioned earlier today a total score no matter how high does not mean you are the best. In fact it must be regarded as who is ? probably cannot really be put in words. all the aces on the list via the first page deserve their recognition in the service of their country

01-12-2006, 08:20 PM	#123
Erich the old Sage Join Date: May 2004 Location: Platonic Sphere Posts: 11,109	Les many of the nf's were first ZG FIGHTER PILOTS, and if you think about that come late war yes indeed there were combats with Mossies, Beaus and P-61's; turns circles, corkscrews and BLAM, someone has to fall or limp home hurt quite possibly with dead aboard. some of the nf cranked up hundreds of missions on both the western and eastern fronts, and then of all things, something that the day fighter boys did not have to do, but the nf's had to perform day time ground attack duties in slow moving twin engine fighters equipped with bombs knowing full well they could be taken out by Allied escorts, ground based Allied AA. compare that insanity with the German/US/RAF/or Soviet day fighters whom never had to perform stupid acts of flying night ground attack or evening missions. Obviously you can see the superior well roundedness of the nf individuals many of them coming from KG bomber gruppen flying day/night missions, outnumbered with horrid fighters flying overhead.

01-23-2006, 12:17 PM	#129
DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crewchief Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany Posts: 34,066	My personal top are: 1. Hartmann 2. Baer 3. Nowotney 4. Galland Baer for though is the over all fighter pilot of the war. __________________ fly boy:"isnt that the first jet bomber becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles"

01-23-2006, 01:20 PM	#131
CurzonDax Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 355	My question is this, without again sound pro-US, but its a question I have always had since a child. Why does everyone seem to forget the US aces. While I did vote for Hartmann, my fav Luftwaffe ace, is that US aces are not as romantic or didn't shoot down a million planes. I hope I don't sound pissy, cause I am not, its just I have been curious since a child. My top 10 in no particuar order: 1. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington 2. Chuck Yeager 3. Hubert Zemke 4. Francis "Gabby" Gabresky 5. Tommy Blackburn 6. Tex Hill 7. Bud Mahurin 8. George Welch 9. Joe Foss 10. Butch O'Hare :{) __________________ During World War II, Chuck Norris once shot down a German plane. He pointed his finger and yelled BANG!

01-23-2006, 02:42 PM	#135
CurzonDax Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 355	Interesting list, but I find it curious that Dick Bong and Tom McGuire are not on that list.[/quote] The reason why they are not there, and this list dates back to my childhood, I thought thier exploits were boring. As an adult I admire them but they are not my fav. To me, and to a certain point that is still true today, they are just pilots, they did not seem to have the charisma that the others had. I mean Pappy had a terrible but addictive series done about him, Yeager broke the sound barrier, Tex was a Flying Tiger, Gabby fought in the Spanish Civil War, etc, etc, etc. Bong and McGuire to me were boring. :{) __________________ During World War II, Chuck Norris once shot down a German plane. He pointed his finger and yelled BANG!

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