Greatest military blunder of WWII

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by timshatz

I don't agree. And what's more, his contemporaries didn't agree. While my opinion doesn't mean much, others who knew him at the time felt the same way.

I agree with your points about armchair generals and making decisions with incomplete information. They are good and very valid points. But you need somebody, WE needed somebody, who would fight. And you will never have complete information. Doesn't matter if you are running a business or running a war. Most decisions are made in a fog. Make the right decisions, fame and fortune come your way (depending on which you want). Shy from it, and somebody else will come in to do it. Make the wrong decisions and you end up broke, disgraced and forgotten.

Wake was relatively insignificant in the scheme of things. It was a single island out in the middle of the Pacific. No great offensives were launched from it. It was not even deemed important enough to take back by the powers that be. Was liberated until the end of the war. But there was an opportunity there in 1941. Kimmel saw it, Pye saw only the down side.

I wasn't validating or disagreeing with the decision one way or another. I was simply commenting on syscoms statement regarding armchairing this crap. Making a decision regarding something you have almost all information regarding, plus obviously the historical outcome, cannot be compared to the individual making the decision at the time.

What bothers me is that Joe Dirt in Bumble----, Oklahoma reads a military book and suddenly he could have run the war better than Eisenhower, Halsey, etc. and smashes these individuals that did their best to serve their country.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

And that my friends is an example of ignorance....

You think??? I was hoping nobody would respond to that one...

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by mkloby

What bothers me is that Joe Dirt in Bumble----, Oklahoma reads a military book and suddenly he could have run the war better than Eisenhower, Halsey, etc. and smashes these individuals that did their best to serve their country.

I agree with ya'. It is easier to be critical than correct and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I see it sometimes on the board, that somebody was inept. Saw both Montgomery and Eisenhower get that tag recently. Don't think either one deserves it. In truth, given the cirumstances of the time, they both did a pretty good job. I suscribe to the idea that the side that makes the fewest mistakes while pursuing their plan-wins.

Far too often, you get a post saying, "If so and so had done such and such, the war would've ended 6 months eariler". Such posts usually don't understand that doing "such and such" was not practical for a mulitude of reasons. But by looking at a map (and only a map), it seems simple.

Another problem Armchair Strategiest have is they rarely make any weighty decisions themselves. With little experience in making the decisions, it amazes them that something was not done "the obvious way".

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by timshatz

I agree with ya'. It is easier to be critical than correct and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I see it sometimes on the board, that somebody was inept. Saw both Montgomery and Eisenhower get that tag recently. Don't think either one deserves it. In truth, given the cirumstances of the time, they both did a pretty good job. I suscribe to the idea that the side that makes the fewest mistakes while pursuing their plan-wins.

Far too often, you get a post saying, "If so and so had done such and such, the war would've ended 6 months eariler". Such posts usually don't understand that doing "such and such" was not practical for a mulitude of reasons. But by looking at a map (and only a map), it seems simple.

Another problem Armchair Strategiest have is they rarely make any weighty decisions themselves. With little experience in making the decisions, it amazes them that something was not done "the obvious way".

Agreed, but I think on a board like this you must be able to analyse things and talk about what could have done differently. That's the whole purpose of these treads, isn't it. I don't mean burning a general to the ground, but just analysing if his descision was right or wrong given the information we have now.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by mkloby

You think??? I was hoping nobody would respond to that one...

Sorry please explain? If I do not understand you correctly I apologize it is rather late and I am very very tired.

[mkloby]

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

Sorry please explain? If I do not understand you correctly I apologize it is rather late and I am very very tired.

That's ok. I was agreeing with you that that post was ridiculously... inept or ignorant (probably both). It was one of those posts that was so much so I was hoping nobody would even dignify it with a response.

[mack]

Originally Posted by timshatz

December 10th, 1941. Hitler declares war on the US. Firstly, it turned a European war into a global war. Before that, it is possible to call the wars going on The Great European War and The Great Pacific War. By declaring war on the US, it truely became a World War (not all the World was in it, but that stretched it all the way around the globe in an intertwined way).

I was going to add June 22nd 1941 but that was not really a World War situation. It was still part of the Great European war. So Barbarossa doesn't quite make it (stupid blunder that it was).

By declaring war on the US (the only country he actually did that to), Hitler added the last piece in the puzzle that would bring about his downfall. Russia had the Manpower, England had the position, the US had the Manufacturing capacity. US involvement in the European war might've been inevitable, but Hitler's actions only hurried his end.

I agree,without the US things would have been tougher for England and Russia>

[Aussie1001]

I must post a hypothetical post....
If hitler hadn't broken the treaty he had with starlin he would have made it easier for him although at that stage he had already made some screw ups....
it is all very easy for us to comment though at the time the decisions might have seemed a good idea although some would argue that hitler was a bit coo coo.......

[Njaco]

I been thinking that also Aussie but as much as I try a scenario without Russia, I realize it can't happen. Hitler's idealology was totally against the Soviets which he considered subhuman. He would never have ignored Russia and very unlikely have made any trades or deals even to get oil or such. I just can't seem to get past that point. Its inherent in National Socialism.

Besides at some point I think Japan, which was a war partner, wouldve pressured to do something to help their end of the world. Japan and Russia were enemies at the time.

But a neat little head scratcher. WWII without the Eastern Front.

[Aussie1001]

Yes hitler considered everyone else apart from his "super race"
however if he had have put this aside and not invaded russia......well it would have been interesting.
But would starlin have invaded instead i mean he wasn't very rational either was he?

[Michael]

Ignorant. Wow. I thought everyone was entilted to an OPINION. The fact that you do not agree does not neccessary make me ignorant. How is it that a whole nation followed a man that wanted to exterminate an entire religious faith (apparently got 6 million)? Ignorance? Arrogance? Fear? Self-righteous Indignation? Blind obedience?
Maybe they just didn't see letting any other OPINION have a chance or give it a germ of credence. After all majority rules and might makes right.
BTW Marshall was the plan man after Japans defeat.
Question. Why was McArthur considered a hero when he lost a whole US territory when Kimmel and Short were ostracized for losing the fleet at Hawaii?

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Michael

Ignorant. Wow. I thought everyone was entilted to an OPINION. The fact that you do not agree does not neccessary make me ignorant. How is it that a whole nation followed a man that wanted to exterminate an entire religious faith (apparently got 6 million)? Ignorance? Arrogance? Fear? Self-righteous Indignation? Blind obedience?
Maybe they just didn't see letting any other OPINION have a chance or give it a germ of credence. After all majority rules and might makes right.
BTW Marshall was the plan man after Japans defeat.
Question. Why was McArthur considered a hero when he lost a whole US territory when Kimmel and Short were ostracized for losing the fleet at Hawaii?

I don't think many words really describe you. Arrogant is one of them. Bizarre is another.

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by Michael

Ignorant. Wow. I thought everyone was entilted to an OPINION. The fact that you do not agree does not neccessary make me ignorant. How is it that a whole nation followed a man that wanted to exterminate an entire religious faith (apparently got 6 million)? Ignorance? Arrogance? Fear? Self-righteous Indignation? Blind obedience?
Maybe they just didn't see letting any other OPINION have a chance or give it a germ of credence. After all majority rules and might makes right.
BTW Marshall was the plan man after Japans defeat.
Question. Why was McArthur considered a hero when he lost a whole US territory when Kimmel and Short were ostracized for losing the fleet at Hawaii?

You're ignorant, because you obviously never heard of the versailles treaty, which is a great example of what happens if you treat de defeated country the way you described: you'll get another war. The US didn't make that mistake at the end of WW2 and we must all be glad they didn't.

[bomber]

Originally Posted by syscom3

We've been at peace with that country for 62 years now.

Far from a blunder.

Mmmmmm

The Germans in WWII tried to destroy the UK's industrial base through droping bombs they failed...

Yet 62 years of peace has left it in a far worse condition

Shooting war.... economic war.... spot the common denominator ?

Simon

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by bomber

Mmmmmm

The Germans in WWII tried to destroy the UK's industrial base through droping bombs they failed...

Yet 62 years of peace has left it in a far worse condition

Shooting war.... economic war.... spot the common denominator ?

Simon

Boy your a freaking optimist - I'd hate to see you at a suicide prevention clinic.