Greatest military blunder of WWII

[timshatz]

Plan D, you might want to think this one through a bit.

Singapore was (and still is) thousands of miles from England. At the time, the Brits were in a struggle for their national existence. Resources, both material and personel, were limited in what can be spared. This is further brought out by the caliber of equipment used in that theatre until about 1944. Even as late as the fall of 1943, the Commonwealth Air Forces were using the Curtiss P36 (called the Mohawk) as a front line fighter. There was simply nothing else to use. In short, the lines of communication for the Brits were very long and would've required substantial drawdowns to the three fronts (England, North Atlantic and North Africa) to equip. It was simply not going to happen.

Second, the Japanese had probably the best Naval Air Force in the world in Fall of 1941 and the Spring of 1942. The RNAS was using aircraft a generation or two behind them. As Singapore is an island, it is susceptable to blockade. The Royal Navy could not break that blockade with the equipment available. This is further proven by the strategic withdrawl of British Forces from the Bay of Bengal in the spring of '42 when Nagumo's carrier forces went on a rampage in that area (sinking, amongst other ships, the HMS Devonshire and HMS Cornwall). The RNAS Carrier arm was not a factor of importance in this fight.

Another point, Malaya is a penninsula. As noted above, the Japanese controled the waters. Given that, no matter where the Commonwealth troops decided to fight (assuming they had the training and support to do so effectively), the Japanese always had the option of flanking them by using amphib landings (as they did so effectively on the land).

Singapore was on the end of a long supply line, staffed by second or third rate officers (in general) with no really effective and tested plan for defence. It is a sad thing that so many good troops were lost there. They might've (and probably would've) been far more effective fighting in Java or PNG. But that's the breaks.

The Brits were living on reputation in Singapore towards the end of 1941. While there was a slow buildup going on, it was nowhwere near the caliber needed to counter the Japanese threat.

[Frankster_P]

Italy Getting involved in the war at all.
Should have stayed neutral like Spain.

Then we could have kept our colonies.
All that lovely Lybian oil.

[Instal]

Originally Posted by rogthedodge

It has to be Dunkirk / Barbarossa / Operation Sealion - historically Hitler should have known a 2 front war was beyond Germany and therefore he should have dealt with one front before starting a second. I haven't voted as all 3 are aspects of the same decision

If they'd captured the BEF we'd probably have sought terms and then Hitler would have been free to defeat Russia and the US would have struggled to stage any European inavsion (assuming Ireland would have been garrisoned)

Saved me allot of typing Rog

[Instal]

I have not read the entire post so forgive me if this has been mentioned before. I think the greatest blunder of WW2 was made by one man. Not as you might think, a man of great military rank or political influence. In fact he was a navigator in a Luftwafe bomber. He would be the man that got off course and accidentaly dropped his payload on London. The British had no way of knowing this was a mistake so a raid on Berlin followed. This prompted Hitler to order the Luftwafe to bomb London instead of British airfields giving fighter command enough time to regroup and eventually win the Battle of Britain thus preserving the only launching pad for the invasion of Europe and the defeat of Nazi Germany. The rammifacations of this one error in navigation are astounding.

[GunSmoke]

Pearl Harbor! They didn't get the oil supply, that would have ended it!!!!!! for the Americans simply couldn't carry on a war thet far overseas.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Instal

I have not read the entire post so forgive me if this has been mentioned before. I think the greatest blunder of WW2 was made by one man. Not as you might think, a man of great military rank or political influence. In fact he was a navigator in a Luftwafe bomber. He would be the man that got off course and accidentaly dropped his payload on London. The British had no way of knowing this was a mistake so a raid on Berlin followed. This prompted Hitler to order the Luftwafe to bomb London instead of British airfields giving fighter command enough time to regroup and eventually win the Battle of Britain thus preserving the only launching pad for the invasion of Europe and the defeat of Nazi Germany. The rammifacations of this one error in navigation are astounding.

Interesting observation.

[david johnson]

hitler, himself, is the greatest military blunder of the war.

dj

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by timshatz

Plan D, you might want to think this one through a bit.

Singapore was (and still is) thousands of miles from England. At the time, the Brits were in a struggle for their national existence. Resources, both material and personel, were limited in what can be spared. This is further brought out by the caliber of equipment used in that theatre until about 1944. Even as late as the fall of 1943, the Commonwealth Air Forces were using the Curtiss P36 (called the Mohawk) as a front line fighter. There was simply nothing else to use. In short, the lines of communication for the Brits were very long and would've required substantial drawdowns to the three fronts (England, North Atlantic and North Africa) to equip. It was simply not going to happen.

Second, the Japanese had probably the best Naval Air Force in the world in Fall of 1941 and the Spring of 1942. The RNAS was using aircraft a generation or two behind them. As Singapore is an island, it is susceptable to blockade. The Royal Navy could not break that blockade with the equipment available. This is further proven by the strategic withdrawl of British Forces from the Bay of Bengal in the spring of '42 when Nagumo's carrier forces went on a rampage in that area (sinking, amongst other ships, the HMS Devonshire and HMS Cornwall). The RNAS Carrier arm was not a factor of importance in this fight.

Another point, Malaya is a penninsula. As noted above, the Japanese controled the waters. Given that, no matter where the Commonwealth troops decided to fight (assuming they had the training and support to do so effectively), the Japanese always had the option of flanking them by using amphib landings (as they did so effectively on the land).

Singapore was on the end of a long supply line, staffed by second or third rate officers (in general) with no really effective and tested plan for defence. It is a sad thing that so many good troops were lost there. They might've (and probably would've) been far more effective fighting in Java or PNG. But that's the breaks.

The Brits were living on reputation in Singapore towards the end of 1941. While there was a slow buildup going on, it was nowhwere near the caliber needed to counter the Japanese threat.

Tim we know all that in the Commonwelath. We are taught reasons why and how and when and everything you have mentioned and quiet frankly I totally agree with what all you have said. But for one thing Singapore was a Bastion of the might of the Empire. Yes it was in hind sight which is a wonderful thing to have a Paper Bastion, But many consider the Fall of Singapore and that of Malaya as one of the most singular blunders of the British Empire. It also lead to the Fall of Burma and the threat to India. As well of the loss for the Dutch East Indies ( Indonesian Island Chain). To us it was the toppling of a house of cards if you can understand my meaning Tim. And further after the War Tim had far reaching effects with British Colonialism and its fundamental end in the region. The Fall of Singapore and Malaya Burma Dutch East Indies and if you like put in French Indo China Philippines and India in certain aspects led to Nationalism in the region by the Native People who lived in the region. It wasn't just the Fall of Singapore per say but an end of Empire. So not only was it one of the biggest military blunders in modern history and warfare Tim. It was the death knell for an Empire that the sun wasn't meant to go down on and also effected the Dutch and the French in various ways as well.

And other effects that occured after WW2 was the Malayian Campaign and in some cases Vietnam War with the French losing control over time after WW2 of French Indo China and consquent events leading up to intervention of the US into Vietnam Cambodia and Laos. Also border clashes between Malaya and Indonesia in Borneo. Its just that people living in the Commonwealth see it differently to you Tim. We look more so at the after effects of the Fall of Singapore and Malaya and how it effected the entire region at various stages in the region. And we have to also take into consideration that the Dutch lost control of Dutch East Indies and Nationalism rising there.

As for the Philippines Tim that in itself was different. In my opinion the US was a pseudo Colonial Power. US was what appeared to be like a Colonial Power but not in the same sesne as the British French and Dutch. Having taken the Philippines away from the Spainish. But US had problems with the Moro Independance Movements. When the Japanese invaded the Philippines and the US and Phillipine Military were defeated had similar aspects to rest of the region but the after effects after the War were different Tim. Yes it was one of the singular military blunders the US and Philippines experienced but the overall effects on the Philippines and her gaining total independance from the US after WW2 was totally in a different sphere and outlook for the other Colonial Powers in the region of South East Asia.

I really think Tim and please don't take offense as to what I am about to say. Is that those of us who were brought up in a Commonwealth Country or in the UK itself view it differently as regards to Fall of Singapore then to some one from the US. I think we look more so into the Fall of Singapore and how it effected not only the UK but the rest of the Commonwealth over a longer period or how the region changed due to the Fall of Singapore. One can even say that it had further reaching effects to India Pakistan Burma and even into the Colonies in Africa. I would include HongKong in this but that was different again too. As England had a 99 yr lease on HongKong and that HongKong was ceded back to China when the lease run out. So I hope you see Tim it wasn't just a complete and utter Military Blunder but a complete and utter change in aspects to an Empire after the loss of Singapore to the Japanese

[syscom3]

Emac, well stated. I'm in complete agreement with you this.

Except for one thing.

The US hardly could be considered a pseudo-colonial overlord.
Partial autonomy (commonwealth status) was granted in 1935, preparatory to a planned full independence from the United States in 1946.

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Emac, well stated. I'm in complete agreement with you this.

Except for one thing.

The US hardly could be considered a pseudo-colonial overlord.
Partial autonomy (commonwealth status) was granted in 1935, preparatory to a planned full independence from the United States in 1946.

Ever read Flyboys, Sys? The writer disagrees with you I think

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Marcel

Ever read Flyboys, Sys? The writer disagrees with you I think

Disagree with what?

[Trogdor]

Barbarossa convinced the Japanese to attack the US, removed a key resource country for Hitler and resulted in the two-front war for Germany. Without these, and with the USSR as an partner of some sort, things might have resulted in a Nazi victory and peace with the US.

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Emac, well stated. I'm in complete agreement with you this.

Except for one thing.

The US hardly could be considered a pseudo-colonial overlord.
Partial autonomy (commonwealth status) was granted in 1935, preparatory to a planned full independence from the United States in 1946.

Sys that was the phrase I was looking for and stumbled around thinking of the correct meaning. Thanks

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The US hardly could be considered a pseudo-colonial overlord.
Partial autonomy (commonwealth status) was granted in 1935, preparatory to a planned full independence from the United States in 1946.

What I read in Flyboys was that the Americans acted like a colonial suppressor in the Phillipine-American war when the philipines tried to standup against the American suppression.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by Marcel

What I read in Flyboys was that the Americans acted like a colonial suppressor in the Phillipine-American war when the philipines tried to standup against the American suppression.

We're talking about the second world war, not the PI insurrection. We commited plenty of atrocities then. But unlike the European powers, the US was well underway in letting the PI have their freedom.