Greatest military blunder of WWII

[renrich]

IF Japan had not attacked the US, the US would not have been in the war as soon as they were. IF Germany had not attacked Soviets but rather waited on defense (the Wehrmacht was excellent on defense.) Germany could have possibly worked out a compromise with Britain that would have ended the war. Hitler would probably have to contain his hatred for Jews. Lots of ifs. Once the US was in the war the outcome was foreordained.

[fly boy]

whats operation market garden?

[plan_D]

Operation Market Garden was the Allied attempt at capturing an intact bridge over the Rhine river in september 1944. The 1st Allied Airborne Army (U.S 82nd, 101st and British 1st Airborne) were to drop infront of the British XXX Corps to secure its passage to Arnhem where the Rhine was to be crossed.

There were many canals to cross before reaching the Rhine river, all the crossing points were targets for the airborne. The major crossing for the 101st was the Son bridge which was destroyed by the Germans, the major crossing for the 82nd was Nijmegan which was not captured until XXX Corps provided support and the point for the 1st Airborne was Arnhem itself.

The idea was that XXX Corps would be rolling over Arnhem bridge after 4 days at the most. In the end 1st Airborne were surrounded on the north side of Arnhem and unable to capture both sides - they eventually retreated back across the river with the aid of Polish paratroopers after ten days against the 9th SS Panzer Division.

While the operation was 90% complete (XXX Corps did come within a few miles of Arnhem) it was all for nought as the Rhine was not crossed, which was the goal. The losses suffered by the Allies, especially the 1st Airborne, were not expected and painfully high. The 1st Airborne was decimated for the 10,300 that landed at Oosterbeek (1st Airborne LZ) only 2,500 escaped back to Allied lines.

Operation Market Garden September 17 - 27 1944

There's a good site for you.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by plan_D

Operation Market Garden was the Allied attempt at capturing an intact bridge over the Rhine river in september 1944. The 1st Allied Airborne Army (U.S 82nd, 101st and British 1st Airborne) were to drop infront of the British XXX Corps to secure its passage to Arnhem where the Rhine was to be crossed.

There were many canals to cross before reaching the Rhine river, all the crossing points were targets for the airborne. The major crossing for the 101st was the Son bridge which was destroyed by the Germans, the major crossing for the 82nd was Nijmegan which was not captured until XXX Corps provided support and the point for the 1st Airborne was Arnhem itself.

The idea was that XXX Corps would be rolling over Arnhem bridge after 4 days at the most. In the end 1st Airborne were surrounded on the north side of Arnhem and unable to capture both sides - they eventually retreated back across the river with the aid of Polish paratroopers after ten days against the 9th SS Panzer Division.

While the operation was 90% complete (XXX Corps did come within a few miles of Arnhem) it was all for nought as the Rhine was not crossed, which was the goal. The losses suffered by the Allies, especially the 1st Airborne, were not expected and painfully high. The 1st Airborne was decimated for the 10,300 that landed at Oosterbeek (1st Airborne LZ) only 2,500 escaped back to Allied lines.

Operation Market Garden September 17 - 27 1944

There's a good site for you.

However I think it should be said that the plan could have succeeded, unlike "Sledghammer" {the Allied plan to invade Nazi-held France in 1942} Market Garden was not impossible, but like any bold plan has some chance of failure. Imagine if the US had heeded the radar warnings on Dec 7 1941, and had all their aircraft airborne & AA ready to decimate the Japanese. We would be talking about how stupid it was for the Japanese to even try an attack on Pearl

1.) The British tanks were clearly outmatched by the Germans, about 6 German JagdPanthers were able to hold up several Allied Firefly-equipped battalions at the outset, because they could pick off the Allied tanks, while their armour was too heavy to be penetrated from long range. The Allies really needed a heavy tank like the King Tiger or Jagdpanther, that could withstand enemy fire in a full assault. The ideal tank for this would have been the Tortoise, unfortunately its development was not pushed more quickly.

2.) When the 1st airborne ran into stiff resistance, the commander of XXX corps, Gen Horrocks, asked for a push to another bridge about 15 miles west of Arnhem, which as it turned out was almost undefended. {as all re-inforcements were rushed to Arnhem

3.) There was some faulty organization too, as bridging equipment was too far back in the column, and caused delays as it was brought up, trying to weave its way past several miles of Allied vehicles strung out on the road.


Lastly, although the operation didn't cross the Rhine, it passed the major rivers Maas & Waal, and it forced the Germans to rush reserves to Arnhem, reducing those available elsewhere.

[plan_D]

There was a lot more that went wrong in Op. Market Garden. Don't take me wrong, I think Op. Market Garden was an excellent idea - an extremely bold move. I was simply saying what really happened.

The plan was excellent but I think Colin Powell was the man who said "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy". It was just another of those failures in war - albeit the Allies had chance to halt that upon hearing of 10th and 9th SS Panzer divisions presence.

[A4K]

Germany's invasion of Russia. Hitler should have studied up on Napolean a bit more first

'Those who don't learn from history usually end up repeating it'
(---can't remember the author, but it's a good quote.)

A refresher course in good logistic management wouldn't have gone a miss either.

[Gundrium]

Originally Posted by renrich

The worst blunder of the war was when Japan attacked the US at Pearl Harbor. They were absolutely unrealistic to believe that they had any chance to win a war against the US. The second worse was when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union.

I would like to point out that the reasons BEHIND the Japanese nation attacking the good old U.S. of A is shrouded in mystery, some believe that the Japanese simply attacked to get jet tech, others believe they just did it to get on the Hitler’s good side, yet there is evidence that the Japanese were actually FORCED to attack, under threat of conquest from the third rich. personaly, while I think it WAS a BAD idea, I think the two worst were when The third rich declared war on U.S.A, and the incident at pearl harbor. (Truthfully, I think the WORST blunder was Hitlers Beginning the war IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!)

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by Gundrium

I would like to point out that the reasons BEHIND the Japanese nation attacking the good old U.S. of A is shrouded in mystery)

Nothing shrouded about it at all. Japan invaded and occupied French IndoChina in September of 1940, taking advantage of the weakness of French forces due to their capitualation to Germany. The US issued an embargo on Oil (in the middle of 1941) to the Japanese as a protest and to get them to withdraw. It left Japan with a little more than a year's worth of Oil in reserve (some figures say 6 months). The US also, as part of the Embargo, made it a condition that Japan leave China as well (which it had invaded in 1937 after the "Marco Polo Bridge Incident")

Further, it should be pointed out that between 1931 and June of 1942, the Japanese empire attacked or invaded every country surrounding them with the exception of Canada (which was a little on the distant side).

The arguement that the US forced the Japanese to attack them is a little like saying a Cop forced a Criminal to shoot back when faced with arrest.

[renrich]

Right on Tim! If the Japanese had not had a desire to dominate their part of the world they would not have gotten themselves in the fix they got in. Their problem was that their leaders were extremely myopic and really had no idea what they were getting themselves into. They had a view of the world that was absolutely unrealistic!

[ToughOmbre]

The Japanese greatly underestimated the will and resolve of America. And the execution of their attack plan was flawed. If they really thought that the complete destruction of the Pacific fleet at the outset of hostilities was necessary to force the US to sue for peace, then they should have hit Pearl with at least another wave, and then gone after their priority targets, the American Carriers. Nagumo was too conservative and the Japanese were too rigid in their plan. It would cost them six months later in the Battle of Midway as well. The Japanese could never have defeated the US regerdless of how well they executed their attack, but the fact remains that their strategy doomed the empire.

TO

[Njaco]

Could it be said that Midway was the blunder that doomed the Japanese as well as Stalingrad for Germany?

[timshatz]

Originally Posted by renrich

Right on Tim! If the Japanese had not had a desire to dominate their part of the world they would not have gotten themselves in the fix they got in. Their problem was that their leaders were extremely myopic and really had no idea what they were getting themselves into. They had a view of the world that was absolutely unrealistic!

Good point. That sort of thing, the myoptic viewpoint, often happens with island peoples. Well, in the past it did. I am not sure how much anyplace can be closed effectively anymore. But back then, especially in the orient, it was more common to be isolated and have a warped view of reality.

On another note, the Japanese outlook was also shaped by a Government that was not truely effective as a representation of the Japanese people. The Govt of Japan in the 30s and 40s was one with three branches, Civilian, Army and Navy. It was very unusual in that a military service had say in the affairs of the Nation. In Democracies, which we are most familiar with, it is the other way around.

The Japanese Military cowed the Civilian Govt with a combination of threat and open assasination. What was structured to be a Govt that kept itself in check (as most Govts are) ended up with the Army and Navy doing whatever they wanted while the Civilian Govt was ignored. Hence the invasions throughout the Orient. Most were Army shows, usually initiated by some crackpot Colonel, where the Government (both Navy and Civilian) were told afterwards and nothing happened to the perpetrators.

Given such a situation, it was only a matter of time before one or both of the Military Branches oversteped their authority to the extent Japan was in a fight it had no chance of winning.

[Marcel]

Originally Posted by freebird

Market Garden was not impossible, but like any bold plan has some chance of failure.

Market garden would have succeeded if the British would have listened to intel provided by the dutch resistance. The presence of the SS panzer division in Arnhem was told to them, but they paid no attention. Furthermore, landing sites were chosen very badly, again not listening to the dutch. The heathland near Wolfheze was way to far from the bridges. Also the operation was carried out after it was reported that the panic flight of the germans was over and the had regrouped themselves. Had the operation taken place a week or so earlier it still might have succeeded. Again very bad planning from the part of the allies. I would say it was a blunder.

Another candidate for major blunder was the german offensive near Koersk, great blundering from their part.

[freebird]

Originally Posted by timshatz

Further, it should be pointed out that between 1931 and June of 1942, the Japanese empire attacked or invaded every country surrounding them with the exception of Canada (which was a little on the distant side).

Tim they got us too! {not quite on the same scale as "Pearl" though...}

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

On June 20, 1942, the Japanese submarine Japanese submarine ''I-26'', under the command of Yokota Minoru, fired 25-30 rounds of 5.5" shells at the Estevan Point lighthouse on Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada but failed to hit its target. This marked the first enemy shelling of Canadian soil since the War of 1812.

Originally Posted by Marcel

Market garden would have succeeded if the British would have listened to intel provided by the dutch resistance. The presence of the SS panzer division in Arnhem was told to them, but they paid no attention. Furthermore, landing sites were chosen very badly, again not listening to the dutch.

Anyways what would the Dutch know about Arnhem? {Oh yeah, they live there...}

Originally Posted by freebird

"Your men (British & Aust.) fight like lions, too bad they are led by asses" (donkeys).

And you thought that upper-class twits were only in a Monty Python skit...

[plan_D]

It wasn't just the Dutch resistance which informed the British command about the Panzer divisions - in fact the solid proof came from RAF PR aircraft.

Market Garden would have been a complete success in August, but Montgomery wanted to make sure that the supply was ready for any future operations. Even if the British planners had listened to the Dutch, the plan would have failed - the SS panzer divisions were present; the operation should have never happened with their presence.