Ground crews....

[pbfoot]

I don't mean to demean their efforts but until you tried going mechanical work in the cold with wind you just can't appreciate how hard it is . Imagine gas pouring on your hand in the cold . So cold you can't grip your tools you can't wear gloves because you can't feel what your doing with them on .
And after you finish your task you try and thaw out the agony of your extremities thawing out is really very painful . I believe every one of those guys would have swapped for the southern climates at a drop of a hat.

[Emac44]

But then again have to look at the Ground crews working in the deserts of North Africa and Middle East. Imagine half way through stripping the engine from a P40 Kittyhawk for Desert Hussars RAF and a bloody sand storm broils up getting fine grit sand like talcum powder through the engine intakes and such. As FBJ said if it wasn't for all ground crews pilots are pedestrians with expensive sunglasses

[bigZ]

Gets bloody cold in those North African deserts at night.

[pbfoot]

Can you imagine the black flies in summer Russia
I know I'd much prefer to work in the heat and humidity or just plain heat. I work outside and don't use gloves on cold days and at the end of the day when my fingers are cracked and bleeding from the cold I pine for a an average summer day of 30c day with humidity. But still no matter what theatre these guys of all forces performed miracles with limited resources

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by pbfoot

Can you imagine the black flies in summer Russia
I know I'd much prefer to work in the heat and humidity or just plain heat. I work outside and don't use gloves on cold days and at the end of the day when my fingers are cracked and bleeding from the cold I pine for a an average summer day of 30c day with humidity. But still no matter what theatre these guys of all forces performed miracles with limited resources

That I agree with totally with most of what you said Pb. But you want flies. You are talking to an Aussie about bloody flies. When you get 40 million blow flies assigned to each person and the bloody things take it in shifts to get every where and on anything. In North Africa flies were a constant problem for every one. Men had to eat drink **** and piss under cover and under extremes of temperatures and yes it does get bloody cold at night in the desert. then such lovley things like scorpions and snakes. water in short supply and no beer either and that applied just as much for the Italians and Germans alike. Desert didn't favour any one nor did the tropics for Japs and Allies. but same can be said for the European theatre as well just some differences of course. And Pb 30 celius heat is fine but you don't want to be working in heat 40 celius plus trust me on that. I have seen steel railway tracks buckle in heat like that and you could literally fry an egg on those rails they become that heated. thinking of which it must have been hell in a tank during African campaign. Pb I kid you not I have worked in heat like that 40 celius plus and the sun beats down like a bastard. And you see heat radiating from the ground in heat shimmies and every time you move you become a ball of sweat. You have to wear a hat or shirts etc to keep sun of you and constantly drink fluids to avoid heat exhaustion. It can kill you just as quick as hypotherma can in the cold, Oh the Hell With it. My gratitude to all ground crew. Especially the ones who maintained my Dad's Lancaster. Their work helped get him and his mates home

[Wildcat]

Now, I agree that ALL groundcrews from every theatre had it tough at some stage and had to overcome hardships specific to their environment, but I still stand by my original post, that the blokes in the Pacific and CBI theatre (and the RAAF/USAAF airmen in Northern Australian for that matter) still had a tougher time at it. If it wasn't the constant heat (anyone who's ever worked on something metalic in 40C+ heat will know what I'm on about) it was the unbearable humidity which affected wiring and electronics, monsoonal downpours that turned airfields into mud bowls, the malaria bearing mosquitoes that were your constant compainion at night, the risk of disease throught rough living, the deadly snakes, spiders and other jungle dwelling creatures that made life miserable. Then there was, of course, the enemy. If his aerial bombs and machine guns weren't enough, they had naval bombardments (especially the early stages of the PTO) the threat of being overrun and of course the fear of capture by a brutal enemy. Many allied groundcrews endured hell in Japanese PoW camps when places like Malaya, Singapore, Rabaul the Phillipines etc fell. Coupled with the lack of comforts and immense boredom whilst off duty ( very little to do in the jungle or on some pacific Island). I personally believe these factors alone make the tropics a much tougher environmet to service and maintain an operational airforce at a high servicability rate.

[lesofprimus]

I voted Luftwaffe... All this Pacific crap is fine and dandy, my Grandfather was in it for 3 tours, so I know how bad it was, but those Black Men had the worst of all possibilites... Gotta give it to them for all the reasons listed above...

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Emac44

A winter war would be tough on all I agree however given the situation of Tropical Diseases Tropical spa it is not working in temperatures of 100 Farnhiet plus then getting eaten alive literally by every bug that flies walks and crawls and sweat trickling down your face when stripping an engine or airframe. I know some would say frost bite and cold snows have their disadvantages but do not take it for granted Ground Crews working in the Tropics had an idylic time of it in the heat and monsoons of the Pacific and Asian region

Ever been to Russia in the Summer time?

The reason I go for the East Front is this:

Winter: Ice, Snow, -40 Temps, Mudd. They did not have the nice mechanics gloves that we have today. Try touching bare metal in -40 Temps.Then you have to move the aircraft around through the mud, get the maintenance vehicals up to the aircraft. Fuel Trucks. Aircraft may not like the cold either. Lots of Snow...

Spring: Mudd lots of Mudd! Night Time temps down around the 0 to 5 C Range. Still very cold to touch the metal with bare hands. Day time it warms up nice but the mudd thaws out. You have mud to the knees. You also have lots and lots of mosquitos eating you alive. Lots of Rain...

Summer: Mudd, High temps between 30 and 35 C (obviously not as warm as in the PTO but still pretty damn hot to slave in the sun all day), Lots of Bugs and mosquitos eating you alive.

You see the PTO was deffinatly treacherous, I am not taking it away from that and it was extreme as well. The East Front though in my opinion had Extremes on both ends. Cold and Hot. You had the bugs as well.

From my experience of working on aircraft in 120 F heat in the desert of Iraq and in the 0 F of Kosovo. I would much rather work on aircraft in the heat. You can strip down eneogh to keep somewhat cool in the heat but in the cold you have keep warm somehow.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Emac44

But then again have to look at the Ground crews working in the deserts of North Africa and Middle East. Imagine half way through stripping the engine from a P40 Kittyhawk for Desert Hussars RAF and a bloody sand storm broils up getting fine grit sand like talcum powder through the engine intakes and such. As FBJ said if it wasn't for all ground crews pilots are pedestrians with expensive sunglasses

Been there done that my friend. We had a really big red sand storm hit us in Iraq right after I landed one time and was doing a post flight on the aircraft. Had to run back inside the aircraft to keep from drowning in sand!

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Emac44

And Pb 30 celius heat is fine but you don't want to be working in heat 40 celius plus trust me on that. I have seen steel railway tracks buckle in heat like that and you could literally fry an egg on those rails they become that heated. thinking of which it must have been hell in a tank during African campaign. Pb I kid you not I have worked in heat like that 40 celius plus and the sun beats down like a bastard. And you see heat radiating from the ground in heat shimmies and every time you move you become a ball of sweat. You have to wear a hat or shirts etc to keep sun of you and constantly drink fluids to avoid heat exhaustion. It can kill you just as quick as hypotherma can in the cold,

You just described my personal hell for 14 months when I was in Iraq!

[plan_D]

I can't vote for a single air force because almost all ground crews were ingenius in all their given situations.

I cannot believe that no one has mentioned the RAF ground crews. I suppose it is up to me to point out that in 1940 these lads kept heavily damaged fighters in air while being harassed and bombed by the Luftwaffe. Even throughout the war the RAF ground crews maintained their fighters and heavy bombers (with extensive damage) with the odd bombing from the Luftwaffe.

At Crete the poor lads were left behind to defend the island alongside the ground pounders after the final four Hurricanes left for Malta. And on Malta the ground crews kept all the defending fighters, fighting fit even with spares shortages and constant bombardment.

In North Africa, even with the constantly moving fronts between 1941 and 1943 the ground crews shifted in the party system to keep each squadron operating even while moving from base to base. This was under bombing and bombardment from German heavy guns (especially so in 1943 with Rommel's last offensive in Africa).

All this mention of the RAAF in the PTO - well here's a thumbs up to the RAF lads in India and Burma. With the second Chindit operation ground crews were operating an airfield behind enemy lines. They kept eight Spitfires operating and maintained any C-47s that landed. And there's just as little to do in the Burmese jungle as there is any Pacific Island.

Then in France and Germany the same movement system that was created in North Africa. Through rain, wind, snow and sleet these lads kept anything and everything flying.

And if we include Fleet Air Arm lads we've got the carrier operations to be dealing with.

Anything the US ground crews did, the RAF crews did too.

The U.S ground crews in North Africa get praise for "Mongrel" though.

"When we flew overseas we carried what was referred to as the 'Flight Kit' consisting of a collection of spare parts guesstimated by the Group CO and his staff. These parts were scattered throughout the airplanes of the flight. This small supply was our only source of replacement parts for a long time. Although the RAF had some Liberator parts at a Depot in Palestine, few if any were available to us. The Army Air Force answer was to fly combat planes with combat crews overseas to be cannibalized (the planes, not the crews, although we got hungry enough to eat some plump bombardiers). I believe the 98th received five of these 'cannibals' while in Palestine, all going to Group HQ at Ramat David. Soon these planes were skeletons standing around the airport. One Warrant Officer, named Cook, got permission from the Group CO to build airplane out of the remaining parts. With the help of various mechanics, W.O. Cook soon had an airplane with variously colored wings and empennage, some original design in controls, gas lines made of ordinary water pipe, and an insignia consisting of a bitch with some offcolor pups. When I took over the Group at Fayid, Egypt, the Mongrel was listed in flying condition but seldom flew and was on no HQ list of airplanes. When we moved into the Western Desert and set up our tents at Gambut, I first flew the Mongrel and was agreeably surprised at her performance. Later when we in for pretracted operations at Benina Main, east of Benghazi, we began to fly the Mongrel to and from Cairo, ferrying crews on leave, laundry, supplies, mail and what have you. She usually carried over 30 men and unweighed poudage of freight." - Col. "Killer" Kane.

From The 9th Air Force in World War II by Kenn C.Rust.

[Emac44]

Hey Adler I am not taking anything away from Ground crews in Europe or Russia. I can understand you worked in 40 plus degree heat for 14 months but remember I do that every year day in day out during our summers. So do understand ok. But take nothing away from ground crews in the Pacific and Asian regions and no Plan I didn't forget the RAF boys by any means or our Canadian mates or any other Commonwealth Ground Crews. it was hardships all round for ground crews Adler no matter where they served so I do understand. I might not have been to Russia but believe me mate I do know the heat and what it can do to some one. At the moment we are having droughts in certain parts of Australia. But in the tropic north they are having monsoons tropic cyclones and ****ing floods. And by the way Adler if you look at Wilds photos these men in those photos had difficulties as well which looks like an old Beaufort coming into land in a sea of mud. But bare in mind Adler those in the Pacific and Asian Theatre didn't see snow but rain constant rain that comes down like sheets and never lets up for days on end turning the airstrips into mud baths bad enough walking in that let alone taxing an aircraft as the same in Russia. We might not have snow Adler but we do have Typhoons and Cyclones that can wreck an airfield in a matter of minutes and turn aircraft to match wood or so much scrap metal. and as Plan so aptly said flying the Hump as it was called to bring in all supplies for the Air Forces because the enemy had cut the Burma Road wouldn't have been an ideal place to be in. Or being on an isolated island and the Jap Navy came by once per night and shelled your aerodrome not so idylisitc as one might think Adler. I am not taking anything away from the Europeans Campaigns and all ground crews had it tough but just because the sun shines in the Pacific or Asian regions doesn't make it all rosey and comfortable for Allied Ground Crews who had to work in those hell holes Adler. and Adler the reason I go for the PTO is because I live in the Pacific region and been brought up in it all my life. Father on the other hand served in North Africa and Middle East and also in Pacific before joining Bomber Command and going to England. So Adler I think I do have a handle on the situations described by you. and don't forget Adler a lot of these Aerodromes didn't come about in the jungles of the Pacific or Asian region because of pre war planning they had to be cut out of the scrub Yes with mechanical aid but also by hand. Most in particular the Burma Campaign and the other part where Chinese Civilians not only built a bloody other road but also turned around and built airfields by hand Adler. if by chance german or Axis Ground crews were caught by the enemy they may have had little chance of survival but remeber with the Japs you had **** all chance

[Emac44]

All this Pacific crap is fine and dandy,

Pacifi Crap huh Les. Really les thought you would have at least seen it wasn't all crap

[Emac44]

All this Pacific crap is fine and dandy,

Pacifi Crap huh Les. Really Les thought you would have at least seen it wasn't all crap[/quote]

[pbfoot]

Well maybe I can't appreciate constant 40c temperatures to the same extent but nor can you appreciate sub freezing temperatures . i lived in Winnipeg where Hunter is from and winter is about the same as Russia . Cold and flat nothing to stop the wind .The foam in my car seats froze it was like sitting on concrete. They used to put some gasoline in the crankcases of aircraft to keep the oil thinner so it wouldn't freeze. The modern ground crews have a work time of 15 minutes outside in such cold. Black flies or more popularly named "No see ems" because of their small size seem to eat hunks of flesh. The runway can be a sheet of ice and your aircraft becomes a 5 ton curling stone . I've witnessed a Tornado weathercock on an icey runway sliding sideways for a good distance >once again all the guys did great work no matter what theatre but give me the heat