Hawker Hurricane vs Me 323 Gigant

pbfoot · 05-25-2008, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

They should've fitted the a/c with 6x BMW 801's or Jumo 213's, imagine the load it would've been capable of carrying then, it being enormous enough as it was!

I'll take the word of the man who shot one down amd he said " it collapsed like a stack of cards"

Soren · 05-26-2008, 06:01 AM

And so ofcourse it was useless right ?

pbfoot · 05-26-2008, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

And so ofcourse it was useless right ?

not at all I just would not want to fly the beast near a combat zone .

Soren · 05-26-2008, 07:24 AM

Well would you want to fly ANY such large an aircraft near a combat zone ?

Your reliance on the comment "Collapsed like a stack of cards" seems to suggest that you're of the opinion that the Me-323 was somehow comparatively flimsy compared to other large a/c.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-26-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

The weapons were fastened so no recoil would really be felt pbfoot.

What do you mean by fastened? If I am understanding your correctly, you are talking about a fixed movable mount. Is this correct? If not please correct me.

The reason I am asking is because even with a fixed movable mount, you are going to feel recoil.

I have tons of experience shooting machine guns from fixed movable mounts from a flying aircraft. After a day of shooting from the aircraft, my wrists and hands were hurting from the recoil. Granted if the weapon has not been on a fixed mount, it would have been worse. The fixed mount does absorb a lot of the recoil.

FLYBOYJ · 05-26-2008, 12:11 PM

I happened to be looking at some Me 323 photos last night. The guns carried by the 323 (MG151s 7.92x57) were mounted in a number of ball and socket provisions through out the aircraft. This set up was similar in both German and allied aircraft where part of the barrel stock was retained within the window with either a metal or heavy plexi-glass ball that facilitated rotation. For the most part there is no recoil absorbing provision in any of the photos I was looking at - you simply shoved the barrel in the hole and you had a gun position.

Here's some of the solid mounts - that looks like it will shake your fillings off!

Here's the turrets - not much different than any typical turret of the era

pbfoot · 05-26-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

Well would you want to fly ANY such large an aircraft near a combat zone ?

Your reliance on the comment "Collapsed like a stack of cards" seems to suggest that you're of the opinion that the Me-323 was somehow comparatively flimsy compared to other large a/c.

Large is okay but at least able to move and turn with some authority . 170mph max means economical cruise of what 100 and it had no range ....its dead meat

Hot Space · 05-26-2008, 01:25 PM

If its a .303 armed Hurri then not a chance (Look at the lack of success with the Fw-200 Condor), but Cannons..........yep.

Soren · 05-26-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DerAdlerIstGelandet

What do you mean by fastened? If I am understanding your correctly, you are talking about a fixed movable mount. Is this correct? If not please correct me.

That's what I meant actually.

Quote:

The reason I am asking is because even with a fixed movable mount, you are going to feel recoil.

I have tons of experience shooting machine guns from fixed movable mounts from a flying aircraft. After a day of shooting from the aircraft, my wrists and hands were hurting from the recoil. Granted if the weapon has not been on a fixed mount, it would have been worse. The fixed mount does absorb a lot of the recoil.

Ofcourse you're going to feel the recoil, but it wont be effecting your aim much really. You'll certainly be able to keep guns on an aircraft sized target at 1000 yards.

Also as you know all too well a helicopter is a more bumpy ride than an airplane.

Soren · 05-26-2008, 03:16 PM

Excellent pictures FLYBOYJ! You wouldn't happen to some of the entire interior of the Me-323 ?? If so could you PM them to me or post them here ??

Soren · 05-26-2008, 03:21 PM

Btw FLYBOYJ, the MG131 is a 13mm weapon and the MG151 is a 15mm weapon. The MG151/20 is the 20mm version.

pbfoot · 05-26-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

Ofcourse you're going to feel the recoil, but it wont be effecting your aim much really. You'll certainly be able to keep guns on an aircraft sized target at 1000 yards.

.

1000 yds are you serious ?

Soren · 05-26-2008, 05:02 PM

Yes I am, but I'm not refering to keeping guns on a fighter 1,000 yards away while flying. I'm talking about a stationary target, which a fighter certainly is not. Yet another reason why the Me-323 is most likely going down, the Hurricane can lay down accurate fire on it at longer ranges than vice versa.

However my point is that the recoil wouldn't effect the aim more than the gunner being able to maintain his stream of bullets within an aircraft sized circle at a 1,000 yards. Other things than recoil make sure that accurate fire at 1,000 yards with defensive armaments is very inaccurate, esp. the closure rate and difficult time estimating the correct deflection is what makes it very hard hitting another a/c.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-26-2008, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

Ofcourse you're going to feel the recoil, but it wont be effecting your aim much really. You'll certainly be able to keep guns on an aircraft sized target at 1000 yards.

No Soren it does affect your aim greatly. The recoil is still eneogh to send a jolt up through your arm.

Trust me on this matter Soren, I have actual real world expierence in it...

Also good luck at 1000 yards!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

Also as you know all too well a helicopter is a more bumpy ride than an airplane.

I do not know what helicopters you are flying. Modern helicopters today are no bumpier than fixed wing aircraft.

They are effected by turbulence no different than fixed wing aircraft. Advancement in vibration absorption is pretty much down to an art form now. A properly balanced helicopter feels almost the same as a fixed wing aircraft in flight.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 05-26-2008, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soren

However my point is that the recoil wouldn't effect the aim more than the gunner being able to maintain his stream of bullets within an aircraft sized circle at a 1,000 yards. Other things than recoil make sure that accurate fire at 1,000 yards with defensive armaments is very inaccurate, esp. the closure rate and difficult time estimating the correct deflection is what makes it very hard hitting another a/c.

Soren the biggest thing that effects the tragectory of a bullet from an aircraft is the wind flowing around the aircraft. Depending on the side of the aircraft depends on whether the bullet will fly low and to the left or high and to the right (I might actually have this backwards and need to check this out in the air gunnery manual, this is off course even more effected by the rotorwash of a helicopter, but we are not talking about helicopters here).

Also you have to take into account the speed and direction of the aircraft you are shooting from and the speed and direction of the aircraft you are shooting at.

All of these factors plus the definate recoil (which is strong eneogh to effect your aim and takes litterally hours and hours of shooting to become efficient at it) all contribute to how you aim and can make it difficult to hit your target.