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12-09-2007, 06:35 PM
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#61 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,785
| Don't get me wrong Adler the F-22 and EuroFighter are really close! Both state of the art!
However the F-22's interface isn't a secret, it doesn't feature the same advanced features as that of the EF, and while the F-22 & EF are about as close as can get in terms of sustained & instantanous turn rate, roll rate & climb, the F-22 pilot lacks to absolutely crucial Libelle G-suit. Both aircraft can go further than the passenger (Pilot), so the one with the best G-suit wins, and the EF pilot clearly has the best available to him. One must note that the USAAF is considering adopting the Libelle suit as-well though.
In short I just don't think the F-22 is worth the extra 10 million bucks.. (PS the cost of the F-22 development is way beyond that of the EF project)
Btw, not that it matters much but interesting nonetheless, I read today that the EF is THE most precisely built fighter in the world.
__________________  We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland
Last edited by Soren : 12-09-2007 at 06:40 PM.
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12-09-2007, 06:39 PM
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#62 | | IP/Mech THE GREAT GAZOO
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 13,249
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren  so the one with the best G-suit wins, and the EF pilot clearly has the best available to him. One must note that the USAAF is considering adopting the Libelle suit as-well though. | The suit won't make much of a difference if you're killed BVR.
__________________ "IF ITS RED OR DUSTY, DON'T TOUCH IT"  | |
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12-09-2007, 06:43 PM
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#63 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,856
Country:  | And the F-22 has the advantage of surprise...
Every little advantage in combat counts.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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12-09-2007, 07:03 PM
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#64 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,785
| Copy that FBJ, not sure who has the advantage there...
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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12-12-2007, 12:33 PM
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#65 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Dordrecht
Posts: 2,386
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren The EF features extreme agility because of its excellent aerodynamics, while the Raptor has its great agility by virtue of its thrust vectoring. | Hi Soren,
What's the disadvantage of trust vectoring against the agility caused by the aerodynamics?
__________________ 
"I'm no hero. Soldiers on the ground, they are heroes. In an aircraft you can always evade the bullets."
-Jan Linzel, Dutch fighter pilot | |
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12-12-2007, 02:39 PM
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#66 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 6,770
Country:  | You could almost say that the JAS is today's Mig-21 and the F-22 and Typhoon be the F-4 and F-8 then, eh?  I'd still say that JAS is in the top 5 today....
How is the servicability(?) in the field comparec between these three then, can F-22 and Typhoon take off from normal narrow country roads, frozen lakes etc....? J-35 Draken could and so also J-37 Viggen and JAS.
__________________ 
JAN
"I´m going back to the front to relax"
"THE BLACK CATS FLIES TONIGHT"
"Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant!"
"When you're out of F-8's... You're out of fighters!"
Last edited by Lucky13 : 12-12-2007 at 02:45 PM.
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12-12-2007, 03:06 PM
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#67 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 29,856
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcel Hi Soren,
What's the disadvantage of trust vectoring against the agility caused by the aerodynamics? | I was trying to figure that out as well.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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12-12-2007, 05:36 PM
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#68 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,785
| I never said anything about it being a disadvantage, there's no disadvantage, its just a different way of trying to achieve the same.
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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12-13-2007, 12:35 AM
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#69 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Dordrecht
Posts: 2,386
Country: | Quote:
Originally Posted by Soren I never said anything about it being a disadvantage, there's no disadvantage, its just a different way of trying to achieve the same. | Ah, I misunderstood your post then, sorry.
But do you think the Typhoon could even improve by having trust vectoring or wouldn't that make a difference?
__________________
"I'm no hero. Soldiers on the ground, they are heroes. In an aircraft you can always evade the bullets."
-Jan Linzel, Dutch fighter pilot | |
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12-13-2007, 02:48 AM
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#70 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,785
| It would certainly improve by having thrust vectoring.
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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03-31-2008, 05:12 AM
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#71 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4
Country:  | Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcel Hi Soren,
What's the disadvantage of trust vectoring against the agility caused by the aerodynamics? | One obvious advantage of trust vectoring is that it allows for reasonable handling at high altitudes where the air is thin so controlsurfaces become ever less effective.
I also read somewhere that thrustvectoring is not that great outside the airshows. However I have no understanding whatsoever of the aeronautical calculations involved so some1 else has to contribute on that. | |
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03-31-2008, 09:08 AM
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#72 | | Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Grudziadz
Posts: 25
Country:  | Why EF2000 has better air to air package? Both planes currently carry AIM-120, and both will be carrying Meteors. Difference is in SRAAMs - ASRAAM for EF and IRIS-T for Gripen, but I don't think that ASRAAM gives EF2000 upper hand in terms of weaponry. EF2000 currently lack much in area of AS capabilities, but JAS-39 is not the best one in that area too, so that's even.
CAPTOR radar from Eurofighter and Gripens PS/5 are both mechanicaly steered, both are inspired by Blue Vixen radar, both will have AESA versions in the future. Which one is better? Probably CAPTOR, but I've heard of lot of good about PS/5 too and Gripen as smaller plane has probably lower RCS, so it will be detected later. Makes probably both detection systems more or less even in one-on-one competition.
What else? EWS on Gripen are excelent (Red Flag, quoted here), don't know much about Eurofighter. Gripen has better situational awarenes thanks to best datalink system in the world.
For me, if I had too choose between Gripen and EF2000 for Poland, I choose Gripen each time. Actually I'm still pissed at our politicians for choosing F-16 instead Gripen.
It's excelent 5th generation plane (yeah, I know, but I find 4,5th generation as US marketing trick to place F-22 above it's competitors), it's cheaper to buy, fly and maintain then it's competition (not only EF2000). It has some minuses, like not so great air to ground capabilities and has little short range, but for small and medium countries with not enough money to buy Rafale or EF2000 and sane enough not to buy (and wait) for F-35 it's excelent choice.
If I will be big country with lot of money? EF2000, mostly because of range.
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