Lancaster Vs. B-24

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Nonskimmer

Interesting. Thanks for posting that, Joe.

Thanks NS - I'm assuming he was an ASW guy....

[Nonskimmer]

I won't hold it against him.

[FLYBOYJ]

"My father, John H. White was a Captain and Gunnery Instructor with the United States Fifteenth Air Force, 449th Bomb Group, 718th Armament Section, based in Taranto, Italy during World War II.
I decided to interview him for material and opinion for this web page.


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First, the name?
The B-24 Liberator was also known as the "Flying Boxcar" for its shape and also as the "Flying Coffin" due to the early mishaps caused by a faulty tail design. I believe the British gave the B-24 the name "Liberator" due to the crisis in England and the reliability of the bomber. Supposedly, the President of Consolidated, Reuben Fleet said, "This airplane can carry destruction to the heart of the Hun, and thus help us to liberate those nations finding themselves under Hitler's yoke." From this point forward, the Allies stuck with the nickname. The Liberator web site at the University of Western Ontario concurs with this opinion. (www.csd.uwo.ca)
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Controversy over the B-17 and the B-24?
The B-24 "Lib or Liberator" had increased range and could fly higher and slightly faster than the B-17 "Forts or Flying Fortresses." In addition, it could carry a heavier bomb load. However, many pilots stated that they preferred the B-17, claiming it was much easier to fly and was far easier to keep in the tight bombing formations necessary over Europe.
The B-24 was also terrible to crash land, as the shutter-type bomb bay doors invariably rolled up upon impact, after which the fuselage had a tendency to buckle and break apart.
The crews in the Pacific relayed to operations that they dreaded the prospect of ditching at sea, as the aforementioned doors would pop and allow the fuselage to fill with sea water, causing the aircraft to sink rapidly."
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:...iability&hl=en

[FLYBOYJ]

And one more real interesting bit of information.....

In 1943, US General G. C. Kenney (commander of Allied Air Forces in South West Pacific) decided that RAAF should form seven bomber squadrons equipped with Liberators. The first B-24s were intended to be supplied to 99 Squadron (scheduled to be formed in March 1944 in Queensland), but a withdrawal of the Vultee Vengeance of 21, 23 and 24 Squadrons from New Guinea meant that Liberators would be supplied to these squadrons first.

Australian crews were attached to 380th BG for training and operational experience. The first bombers were delivered in February 1944 to 7 OTU and then to 24 Squadron. The 21 Squadron was operational in January 1945 and 23 Squadron three months later. Other RAAF operational units equipped with B-24s were: Nos 12, 99, 25 and 102 Squadrons. Also Nos 200 and 201 Flights flew Liberators on electronic surveillance and covert missions.

Australian heavy bombers played an important role during the last months of the war, particularly in the Borneo campaign. Total of 287 aircraft were delivered to RAAF including 12 B-24Ds, 145 B-24Js, 83 B-24Ls and 47 B-24Ms. They remained in service until 1948 and were replaced by Avro Lincolns.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...r/7252/b24.htm

Hmmm - I wonder why the Aussies decided to replace their B-24s with Lincolns when there were THOUSANDS of B-24s, some late model "Ms" sitting at Kingman Arizona?!?!

Oh the Lincoln is the same airframe as is the Privateer is to the Liberator?!?

[syscom3]

The Aussies were still loyal to Britain. They probably got those Lincs cause they ahd low hours on them. Did you notice it was 1948, which was three years after the war? Plus who cares. While the Brits were still toying with the Lincoln, we had the B50 and B36.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The Aussies were still loyal to Britain. They probably got those Lincs cause they ahd low hours on them. Did you notice it was 1948, which was three years after the war? Plus who cares. While the Brits were still toying with the Lincoln, we had the B50 and B36.

Loyal to the UK?!?! WRONG!!!!!
It proved it was the better bomber - I've worked with Aussies, they'll purchase equipment they feel will give them the best bang for their buck. They purchased P-51s and Sabers during the same period as well - Products from the US and Canada...

It also once again proves the longevity of this aircraft compared to the Liberator

"By late 1945, the RAAF had received or ordered about 500 P-51 Mustangs, for fighter/ground attack purposes. The Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation initially assembled US-made Mustangs, but later manufactured most of those used."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAAF

"The type was produced under licence by the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation in Australia, re-engined with the Rolls-Royce Avon, and also by Canadair in Canada. Later improvements led to the F-100 Super Sabre, which was a larger aircraft with more powerful engines.

Sabre Mk 2 - 290 built.
Sabre Mk 3 - One aircraft built in Canada, to test the Orenda jet engine.
Sabre Mk 4 - 438 built in Canada for the RAF.
Sabre Mk 5 - 370 built.
Sabre Mk 6 - 655 built.
Sabre Mk 30 - 21 built in Australia for the RAAF.
Sabre Mk 31 - 20 built in Australia for the RAAF.
Sabre mk 32 - 69 built in Australia for the RAAF."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-86

And the Lincolns they got were new - the first few were built from "knockdown kits" - parts made in the UK....

Here's a list of RAAF Lincolns.....

A73-1 Mk.30 05/46 First Australia Assembled Lincoln, assembled in Australia from parts made in Britain. First Flight 12/03/46. Listed for disposal 06/59, converted to componants.
A73-2 Mk.30 08/46 Assembled in Australia from parts made in Britain. 'Nyhuan' Long Range Navigation Trainer and Survey Aircraft. At some stage it was fitted with seats to be used as a transport and had no turrets. Converted to componants 12/53.
A73-3 Mk.30 09/46 Assembled in Australia from parts made in Britain. Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-4 Mk.30 09/46 Assembled in Australia from parts made in Britain. Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-5 Mk.30 09/46 Assembled in Australia from parts made in Britain. Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-6 Mk.30 11/46 First Australian Manufactured Lincoln. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-7 Mk.30 01/47 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-8 Mk.30 11/46 'Gundawarra' of Air Amraments School. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-9 Mk.30 06/47 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-10 Mk.30 07/47 Listed for disposal 10/58. Fire Dump Point Cook VIC.
A73-11 Mk.30 04/47 Served with 21 Sqn. Stalled and Crashed, 19/02/48. RAAF Amberly QLD. All 16 onboard killed.
A73-12 Mk.30 05/47 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-13 Mk.30 06/47 Listed for disposal 10/58. Fire Dump Point Cook VIC.
A73-14 Mk.30 07/47 Converted to Long Range Comms Aircraft. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-15 Mk.30 07/47 'Brenool' of of School of Air Navagation. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-16 Mk.30 07/47 Disabled Cloncurry QLD, 04/53, then hit by A73-51 while it was landing, converted to componants.
A73-17 Mk.30 08/47 Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-18 Mk.30 09/47 Converted to Long Range Comms Aircraft. At some stage it was fitted with seats to be used as a transport and had no turrets. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-19 Mk.30 11/47 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-20 Mk.30 10/47 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-21 Mk.30 11/47 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-22 Mk.30 11/47 Instructional Airframe, Wagga. Then Wagga Fire Dump.
A73-23 Mk.30 12/47 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-24 Mk.30 02/48 Served at Tengah Singapore during the Malayan Emergency 1950. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-25 Mk.30A 02/48 Listed for disposal 06/59. Fire Dumb RAAF Amberly QLD.
A73-26 Mk.30A 12/47 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-27 Mk.30A 02/48 Listed for Disposal 01/59 then Fire Dump Sydney. Cockpit on display Camden Aviation Museum NSW.
A73-28 Mk.30A 07/47 Converted to Ground Recon Aircraft (Mk.31). Listed for disposal 09/60.
A73-29 Mk.30A 04/48 Served with 1 Sqn during Malayan Emergency. Used for rainmaking experiments in 1958. Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-30 Mk.30A 04/48 Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-31 Mk.30A 07/48 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Served with 1 Sqn during Malayan Emergency. On the 04/04/52, this aircraft departed with a load of bombs for a mission and not long after takeoff had a motor cut and returned to base. The crew used another aircraft A73-46 to complete their mission. Crashed on Landing 04/53, RAAF Amberly QLD. Converted to componants.
A73-32 Mk.30A 07/48 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-33 Mk.30A 08/48 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-34 Mk.30A 10/48 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-35 Mk.30A 09/48 Crashed on Landing 03/49, RAAF Amberly QLD. Converted to componants.
A73-36 Mk.30A 11/48 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Served with 1 Sqn during Malayan Emergency. During a night strike a parachute flare became hung up in the bomb bay. The flare ignited and set fire to the aircraft. The tail Gunner Flt lt K.I.Foster put out the fire and was later awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. The first RAAF member since WW2. The Badly damaged aircraft returned to base, it was cannibalised for spares for a short time before being rebuilt and flown back to Australia. Later to Fire Dump Richmond, noted there 09/61. Later it was used for trials on new 50 Ton aircraft lifting cranes. On the last lift of A73-36, the operator jerked the boom on lowering, and it broke the Lincolns back.
A73-37 Mk.30A 12/48 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-38 Mk.30A 02/49 Converted to Prototype Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-39 Mk.30A 02/49 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Served with 1 Sqn during Malayan Emergency. Overshot Runway 30/11/51, Tengah Singapore after completing a test flight after a 100 hour inspection. Pilot: WO Peel. The wreck was onsite at Tengah until it was converted to componants and scrapped.
A73-40 Mk.30A 08/49 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Served with 1 Sqn during Malayan Emergency. On one flight the aircrafts engines failed after the fire extinguishers were inadvertantly operated, they were obviously restarted - date unknown. On the 25/05/56 the tailwheel broke off upon landing at Tengah, the tail fins were badly damaged and couldnt be repaired until some new parts arrived from Australia. Pilot Sqn Ldr Britt. Had an Engine failure and struck Trees after takeoff at Tengah for a night strike and ditched 01/02/57. The crew survived with minor injuries. Pilot: Sqn Ldr E Goldner.
A73-41 Mk.30A 07/49 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-42 Mk.30A 08/49 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-43 Mk.30A 08/49 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Damaged by Cyclone at Townsville, 03/56. Converted to componants.
A73-44 Mk.30A 08/49 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Crashed near RAAF Amberly, 03/50.
A73-45 Mk.30A 09/49 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Listed for disposal 01/59. Then Fire Dump Sydney Airport.
A73-46 Mk.30A 10/49 Converted to Long Range Navigation Aircraft 1949. Served with 1 Sqn during Malayan Emergency. On the 04/04/52 after the crew had a problem with A73-31, the same crew used this aircraft to complete its mission. On their return they found that the aircraft had a fault in its compressed air system. They rigged up a parrachute that was deployed once tha aircraft landed. The aircraft stopped in half the Tengah airstrip, usually the aircraft used 3 quarters. Overshot Runway at Townsville and burned 04/57.
A73-47 Mk.30A 01/50 Destroyed in a storm, 03/02/57, RAAF Amberley. Converted to componants.
A73-48 Mk.30A 03/50 Prototype Mk 31, Stored 04/54. Listed for Disposal 06/59.
A73-49 Mk.30A 05/50 Listed for disposal 09/59.
A73-50 Mk.30A 11/48 Served with 1 Sqn during Malayan Emergency. Listed for disposal 01/59. Then Fire Dump Eagle Farm QLD.
A73-51 Mk.30A 11/48 Hit disabled A73-16 on landing, Cloncurry QLD 04/53. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-52 Mk.30A 08/50 In Storage 04/55. Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-53 Mk.30A 09/50 Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-54 Mk.30A 11/48 Destroyed in a storm, 03/02/57, RAAF Amberley. Converted to componants.
A73-55 Mk.30 ? Converted to Ground Recon Aircraft (Mk.31).
A73-56 Mk.30 12/50 Converted to Ground Recon Aircraft (Mk.31). Listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-57 Mk.30 ? Converted to Ground Recon Aircraft (Mk.31).
A73-59 Mk.30 05/51 Converted to Ground Recon Aircraft (Mk.31). Then Converted to Aircrew Trainer 07/55.
A73-60 Mk.30 05/51 Converted to Ground Recon Aircraft (Mk.31). Firefighting aid 1962.
A73-61 Mk.30 06/51 Converted to Ground Recon Aircraft (Mk.31). Then Maritime Recon Sold to Hookway Aviation 06/62 for scrap.
A73-62 Mk.30 08/51 Converted to Maritime Recon Aircraft (Mk.31) prior to delivery. Sold to Hookway Aviation 06/62 for scrap.
A73-63 Mk.30 12/52 Converted to Maritime Recon Aircraft (Mk.31) prior to delivery. Crashed Townsville, 03/53.
A73-64 Mk.30 02/53 Converted to Maritime Recon Aircraft (Mk.31) prior to delivery. Crashed Mt Superbus QLD, 04/55 while on Mercy Flight. Crew and Pax; WG CDR J.P. Costello, SQN LDR J.W. Finlay, SQN LDR C.S. Mason, FLT LT W.G.S. Cater, M. Grey (Nurse), Baby Huxley (Patient). A prop blade and a rudder from A73-64 are currently located at the Caboolture Warplane Museum. A rock from the crash site of this aircraft on Mt. Superbus has also been relocated to outside RAAF Amberley (under Canberra A84-201).
A73-65 Mk.30 05/53 Converted to Maritime Recon Aircraft (Mk.31) prior to delivery. To Fire Dump Darwin.
A73-66 Mk.30 07/53 Converted to Maritime Recon Aircraft (Mk.31) prior to delivery. Sold to Hookway Aviation 06/62 for scrap.
A73-67 Mk.30 03/53 Converted to Maritime Recon Aircraft (Mk.31) prior to delivery. Sold to Hookway Aviation 06/62 for scrap.
A73-68 Mk.30 05/53 Converted to Maritime Recon Aircraft (Mk.31) prior to delivery. Sold to Hookway Aviation 06/62 for scrap.
A73-69 Mk.30 07/53 Converted to Mk.31. prior to delivery. Fuselage Damaged 01/56, Converted to Componants.
A73-70 Mk.30 07/53 Converted to Mk.31. prior to delivery. Damaged by cyclone at Townsville QLD. Converted to componants.
A73-71 Mk.30 07/53 Converted to Mk.31. prior to delivery. In storage until listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-72 Mk.30 08/53 Converted to Mk.31. prior to delivery. In storage until listed for disposal 06/59.
A73-73 Mk.30 09/53 Converted to Mk.31. prior to delivery. Listed for disposal 06/59.

You were saying?!?

[syscom3]

Did they fly the Lincolns in the war? Nooooooooooooooo. They flew B24's because they thought they were the best aircraft to use in the PTO.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Did they fly the Lincolns in the war? Nooooooooooooooo. They flew B24's because they thought they were the best aircraft to use in the PTO.

Come on sys - you're grabbing at straws again!!!

"The Avro Lincoln was a long-range, high altitude version of the successful Avro Lancaster four-engined bomber. The first RAF Lincoln BI flew on June 9, 1944, and operational squadrons were preparing to join Tiger force in the war against Japan, when V-J Day was declared."

I will say they held on to their B-24s for a few years BUT - gave em up for the Lincoln, and again reminding you they did this while several thousand B-24s sat in the Arizona desert.

AND....

I think it already was posted that the Lancaster was not available to the Aussies, the reason why they went with the B-24 to begin with...

AND.....

Look at the retirement dates of some of those Lincolns!!!

[syscom3]

The retirement dates of the Lincolns? 1959..... hehehehehe, theyre using Lincolns while we have B52's....... heheheheheh.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by syscom3

The retirement dates of the Lincolns? 1959..... hehehehehe, theyre using Lincolns while we have B52's....... heheheheheh.

Yes, but during that time there were only 3 or 4 B-24s left operationally, all with the Indian AF.....

Oh and in 1959 we were still flying B-29s!!!


http://137.240.249.5/pa/fs_b-29.asp

[syscom3]

They were B50's and were mainly for target practice. They sure werent front line aircraft as even the B47 was far superior.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by syscom3

They were B50's and were mainly for target practice. They sure werent front line aircraft as even the B47 was far superior.

WRONG-WRONG-WRONG!!!!!!

THE LAST WB-29s WERE RETIRED IN 1960!!!!!!!

And now you're trying to compare SAC with the RAAF!!!

"The Air Force phased out its last B-29 aircraft – a WB-29—in September 1960. Tail number 44-27343 stayed at Army Proving Grounds in Aberdeen, Md. for 30 years before the Air Force decided it needed a B-29 at Tinker again."

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Syscom you keep throwing out stuff that the B-24 did after the war yet you keep saying that you dont care about after the war only during the war. Thats cool, but then only use stuff after 1945 please.

Second you said the Lancaster did stuff that the B-24 did admirably during the war. Yes you are correct, but you know what the Lancaster did it better.

In almost every post you contradict yourself. It is starting not to make sense. You have not proven a tie between the aircraft, rather you have proven nothing.

I dont harp over crap here. I personally like the B-17 and the B-24 better than the Lancaster but I will not deny that the Lancaster was the better bomber of the 3.

[syscom3]

Im not contridicting myself at all. I correctly pointing out that the AAF had such a vast fleet of aircraft from which to use, plus unlimitless funds to develope new jet aircraft, that there was no need to use the B24. The Brits didnt have those options and were forced to use a great bomber from WW2 into various postwar rolls.

[Gnomey]

We didn't use the Lancaster as a sandwich filler, we used it in many roles in the post war period that it did very well at until superceded by jet aircraft.