Lancaster Vs. B-24

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Try doing that at 20,000 feet, @ 230 knots with no winds aloft information...

If i had a sextant, I could have plotted the course. Not enough to drop bombs, but enough to know where we were at within a box of so many miles.

[syscom3]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Only over LA or Washington DC....

Dont laugh. During the LA riots in '92, the thugs were shooting at aircraft.

[k9kiwi]

Not enough to drop bombs, but enough to know where we were at within a box of so many miles.

With that we can relax. You will never drop bombs, or land on the runway.

Wait until your in the boonies somewhere with a topographical map and compass, you get handed a blade of grass with the words "Where are we."

You are supposed to know.

[pbfoot]

I'll agree the lanc probably carried the most tonnage with exception of the 29 but it in no way could have suceeded in the day enviroment with the 17 or 24 its niche was night bombing I shudder to think what the losses would be if Bomber Command had attempted a Regensberg or Ploesti type raid. Even if the technology used by Bomber Command to target the objective was as accurate as the MK1 eyeball used in day missions was as accurate as the 17/24 in CEP is something I've never seen

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by syscom3

If i had a sextant, I could have plotted the course. Not enough to drop bombs, but enough to know where we were at within a box of so many miles.

If you'd had a sextant I'd advise you to throw it out the window because it's only going to tell you you're exact position providing you could get a fix. You still cannot determine winds aloft which will blow you easily off course in a matter of minutes and above seven or eight thousand feet you could start encountering winds in excess of 40 mph. Sextants were installed on aircraft but for the most part they were useless, and I haven't even brought up high clouds obscuring the night sky.... That box of many miles could turn into a few hundered real quick!!!

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Emac44

This Navigator didn't have it as easy as some are claiming flying over wartime Europe. Perhaps some do not realize the situation for a Navigator in Europe during WW2 was perilous and same for Navigators in SW Pacific. Same inherit danger.

Or North Africa, just ask the Navigator of "Lady be Good."

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

Or North Africa, just ask the Navigator of "Lady be Good."

Damn who would want to be a navigator anywhere in that time of historical period flyboy night day evening morning. depending on the aircraft you could be responsible for others lives as well as your own. make one stuff up in calculations read wind speed velocity wrong take one bearing incorrectly and you could be history and along with other men in the aircraft and it didn't matter in which theatre of war you was flying in. mistakes could and did cost men their lives

[Emac44]

Originally Posted by syscom3

Dont laugh. During the LA riots in '92, the thugs were shooting at aircraft.

in 1939 to 1945 German Italian Vichy French and Japanese were also shooting at Allied Aircraft too. but its ok Allies shot back at the enemies aircraft so it seemed to even itself if you could call it that. If in doubt refer to Herman Georing's claim about enemy bombs falling on the Third Reich. After that Herman's Nickname was Meyer when he got proved wrong.

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by Emac44

Damn who would want to be a navigator anywhere in that time of historical period flyboy night day evening morning. depending on the aircraft you could be responsible for others lives as well as your own. make one stuff up in calculations read wind speed velocity wrong take one bearing incorrectly and you could be history and along with other men in the aircraft and it didn't matter in which theatre of war you was flying in. mistakes could and did cost men their lives

That's right - and my point from the earlier post, comparing DR in a Cessna somewhere over the Southwestern US (Even in the most desolate places) is still a piece of cake when compared with what a WW2 navigator had to do, even in the most simplest situations.

[ndicki]

Just start with the fact that the Nav would, after his first mission, tie bits of string to all his implements, to anchor them to his table. On the first sortie he did, the whole lot ended up scattered all down the fuselage after a brisk corkscrew by the pilot... On subsequent sorties, the only piece of navigation equipment to get thrown around was himself. Start with that.

And to confirm what Emac44 says, my father was one of two survivors out of the 30-odd cadet pilots at his SFTS in Carberry, Manitoba. The rest got the chop.

[ndicki]

Oh, and Lancs did operate by day from time to time. And got chopped up just the same way the early, unescorted or inadequately escorted USAAF raids did. The difference was that the US could afford to bull it out and take the casualties, the RAF could not. A question not only of resources in men and machines, but also a decision on whether or not the cost was worth it, given the damage done to the target. Until the advent of the Mustang MkIII and IV, the British answer was that it was not.

It is of significant interest to note that as a rule, by 1944-45, the degree of damage done by the RAF by night was equivalent to that done by the USAAF by day. Admittedly, in the early years, up into 1943, it was none too precise, but that changed.

[pbfoot]

The Lanc if it flew daylight missions in the same time period as the 17/24 combo1943 early 44 would not have faired anywhere as well as the 8th airforce . The fact the box was not flown by nor practiced by Bomber Command led to some awful losses . I believe in late Mar 45 6 group got caught without fighter cover on a daylight mission and got crushed . If you look at the Nuremburg raid with its extremely heavy losses of 100+/- aircraft and ask the crews about it they will say it was a daylight raid full moon over overcast skies . Descibed by some as flying in a well lit arena it was akin to a turkey shoot

[the lancaster kicks ass]

haha! the B-17s and B-24s did not survive over Europe, they flew in local air superiority becuase of their P-51 escorts, remember american losses were so high before the 'stang that they were considdering not carrying on the offensive! unescorted B-17s were shot down in droves as no ammount of guns can save you completely, which is why the British had the corkscrew amoung other manouvers, so don't you dare compare the lanc's 40,000 dalight missions at 0.7% losses with the american bombing under heavy escort..........

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

First of all syscom, dont give me reasons to make assumptions then, because that is all you ever give me.

Originally Posted by FLYBOYJ

If you'd had a sextant I'd advise you to throw it out the window because it's only going to tell you you're exact position providing you could get a fix. You still cannot determine winds aloft which will blow you easily off course in a matter of minutes and above seven or eight thousand feet you could start encountering winds in excess of 40 mph. Sextants were installed on aircraft but for the most part they were useless, and I haven't even brought up high clouds obscuring the night sky.... That box of many miles could turn into a few hundered real quick!!!

Oh and dont forget the illusion of False Horizon and Vertigo that the clouds will give you, especially IFR at night. Make you think you think you in a different attitude. If you are not on your game and cant follow your instruments you will get lost real quick if you have not allready dove the aircraft into the ground...

False Horizon and vertigo is the craziest thing I ever felt on an IFR flight. We were wings level and I thought I was upside down in a dive!

[FLYBOYJ]

Everytime I fly IFR I get vertigo - you learn to keep the scan going on those flight instruments.

BTW, last week my father in law got me an hour in the 737 sim, shot some approaches and did IFR work (vertigo of course set in).