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09-13-2006, 04:34 AM
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#16 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
Posts: 643
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Chocks away! Bf-109 G is a rather general term. | I totally agree, that's why I wanted to be more specific (.. or picky!  )
While the 109G evolved from 1942 to 1945, the MC205 was not developed after her first entry in 1943.
So, if the data we have gathered are somewhat reliable, MC205 and 109G6 looks very close in performances, hence 109G2 was a bit worse and 109G14 and G10 a bit better
Other general considerations are :
- Cockpit visibility: the Macchi was better at least until the 109 adopted the Erla hood and removed the bulges for the MG
- Armament : Macchi was better (a bit in terms of firepower and more in terms of number of rounds carried, and with the exception of the use vs heavy bombers for the 109g-Mk108 )
- Roll rate : 109G was likely better (I believe that having a substantial weight located in mid-wing like a cannon+ammo creates an inertia that impacts on roll rate)
- Maneuvrabilty: Macchi should be in slight advantage, because of the lower wing load and because of the asymmetrical wing construction that reduced the torque effect.
But all the above are in my opinion non-substantial in comparison to the development of the DB605 from 1943 to 1945: the Macchi remained with the 'basic' DB605A
What is also not shown by the performances is that, slave work or not, the 109 was much easier, simpler and faster to build than the Mc205.
__________________
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams | 
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09-13-2006, 11:38 AM
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#17 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
Posts: 643
| BREAKING NEWS ! FOUND A SECRET DEVELOPMENT OF MACCHI 205 !
The (until today) unknown Macchi 205 F was basically the standard 205V airframe fitted with a new experimental Italian engine.
The secret project was addressing the main problem of the Italian fighter: the lack of a locally developed high performance engine.
Apparently the prototype was extensively flown by the famous test pilot Michele Calzolari (*), who set an incredible string of speed records.
The 30 litre- 75 degree V12 with 4 OHC was credited of 3200 bhp, although the manufacturer always refused to declare the true power output, claiming that he did not wanted to give information to competitors.
More to follow, for now see attached 2 pictures, one original 1943 in bw and the color one from the manufacturer museum in Modena.
(*) Later Mr Calzolari moved to Germany and translated the family name in 'Schumacher'
__________________
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams | |
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09-13-2006, 01:17 PM
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#18 | | Konfused with a 'K'
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Turin, Italy
Posts: 20,412
Country:  | Superb!
__________________  with my one last gaping breath id apologise for bleeding on your shirt... | |
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09-13-2006, 02:02 PM
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#19 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,432
Country:  | Ferrari was powering the Macchi????
__________________ 
"His motor's conked out!"
"What's the differance, they're all Nazis!"
"Luke, shut up!"
"Fear the hook!"
"Oh.....I wanna fly."
"You mean the kind that go under water and fly up the stairs?"
"What you doing? Oh Nooooo!" | |
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09-13-2006, 03:51 PM
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#20 | | Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: thessaloniki
Posts: 46
Country:  | Imagine an all red Macchi 205 Ferrari - powered racer!
Anyway guys, thanks because I found very useful all the details and specifications provided.Also, I would like to explain my original intentions about creating the poll:
Two similarly powered aircrafts, therefore we are obviously talking about the G6 variant, and of course the impact of the Me 109 was unquestionably greater than the 205.What i needed was your point of view and info about the technical comparison of the two different designs.
I am a big fan of the 109 and found it difficult to accept that the italian design (based on my limited sources) was probably a better dogfighter or had an overall better performance.
Thats what i wanted to focus on, your opinion about the best design powered by the same engine! A fairly straight comparison | |
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09-13-2006, 11:22 PM
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#21 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,432
Country: | Imagine an all red Macchi 205 Ferrari - powered racer!
That would be cool!
__________________
"His motor's conked out!"
"What's the differance, they're all Nazis!"
"Luke, shut up!"
"Fear the hook!"
"Oh.....I wanna fly."
"You mean the kind that go under water and fly up the stairs?"
"What you doing? Oh Nooooo!"
Last edited by Soundbreaker Welch? : 09-13-2006 at 11:25 PM.
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09-14-2006, 10:00 AM
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#22 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,854
Country:  | Good stuff, that is really cool with the Ferrari engine!
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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09-14-2006, 01:33 PM
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#23 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,448
| You're sure thats not a modern engine Parmigiano ? Like from the 80's or something like that ? The reason I'm asking is the Carbon fiber.
__________________  We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland
Last edited by Soren : 09-14-2006 at 01:36 PM.
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09-15-2006, 05:11 AM
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#24 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,854
Country: | I tried to research that one but did not find anything.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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09-15-2006, 06:44 AM
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#25 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,448
| Well I can tell you this much, Carbon fiber wasn't invented before the 60's. And although I'm not 100% sure about this, it wasn't used on engines before the 80's.
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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09-15-2006, 03:47 PM
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#26 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,854
Country: | Does anyone know what the N-1, N-2 and the C.206 varients were to be powered by?
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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09-16-2006, 12:16 PM
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#27 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
Posts: 643
| OK guys, was not clear enough it was a joke?!
Even with Mr Cazolari/Schumacher as a test driver?
I think the bw photo is from the 312T formula1, while the color photo I don't know.
Ferrari firm was established in 1947, the first Ferrari engine (1950) was a 12V but only 1,5 litre!
I wanted also to provide the draft of a racing-red 205 with an air scoop and aileron behind the cockpit,but I am too clumsy with the software...
Although Enzo Ferrari had a little to do with aviation: in the 1930's his firm (Auto Avio Costruzioni) was producing subcomponents for aviation, and the Ferrari symbol of the jumping horse was given to him by the widow of the WW1 italian ace Francesco Baracca (they were family friends)
__________________
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams | |
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09-16-2006, 02:34 PM
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#28 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
Posts: 643
| ... Back to real history..
In brief, the lineage of Macchi's was
MC 202 'Folgore'
Improved Mc200 frame with DB601 engine
MC205 V 'Veltro'
Stopgap solution: Mc202 frame fitted with DB605 engine. After a few produced with only 2x12.7 on cowling and 2x7.7 in the wings, the wing was modified to accomodate 2xMG151/20. (officially the MG were standardized on the Series III that was delivered in June 43, but many units of the series I were already carrying the 20mm cannons)
Production was about 180 aircraft before the armistice, plus another 100 in the Salò republic under German control.
Several MC202 that needed an engine change were refitted with DB605 in 1943-44, they were known with the nickname 'Folgeltro', adding confusion to confusion. This machines retained the 202 armament of 2x12.7
The structural difference between Mc200, 202 and 205V was really small, no more than the differences between Spit I - V- IX or 109E-F-G, so it was basically an evolution of the base Mc200 design.
Was common practice to repair the 205 cannibalizing spares from older 200 and 202 frames
MC205N 'Orione'
This was Castoldi's definitive design for the DB605 engine, redesigned with a larger wingspan (wing area 19sqm instead of 16,  .
It should have addressed the drop in maneuvrability of the 205V above 8500 mt
Also featuring an additional MG151/20 firing trough the hub, 109 like.
The difference between N1 and N2 was only the armament : the N1 had an engine mounted MG151, 2x12.7 in the cowling and 2x12.7 in the wing bays, the N2 replaced the 12.7 with the MG151 in the wings.
Only 2 prototypes completed
MC206
Interim design for a new 'high ceiling' fighter: was basically an enlarged MC205N airframe fitted with DB605 and redesigned wings, wing area was 21sqm and armament was 4xMG151 in the wings (Typhoon like)
No completed aircraft known, doubtful if a prototype was partially built.
MC207
The final design: MC206 airframe with DB603 engine
Only design.
__________________
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams
Last edited by Parmigiano : 09-16-2006 at 02:39 PM.
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09-16-2006, 04:19 PM
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#29 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,432
Country: | OK guys, was not clear enough it was a joke?!
Well.......uh........... 
__________________
"His motor's conked out!"
"What's the differance, they're all Nazis!"
"Luke, shut up!"
"Fear the hook!"
"Oh.....I wanna fly."
"You mean the kind that go under water and fly up the stairs?"
"What you doing? Oh Nooooo!" | |
| | |
09-16-2006, 06:57 PM
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#30 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,448
| Quote: |
Originally Posted by Parmigiano OK guys, was not clear enough it was a joke?! | I had a feeling it was something like that ! 
__________________ We have built a total of about 1250 of this aircraft (Me-262), but only fifty were allowed to be used as fighters - as interceptors. And out of this fifty, there were never more than 25 operational. So we had only a very, very few.
- Adolf Galland | |
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