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09-09-2006, 03:37 PM
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#1 | | Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: thessaloniki
Posts: 46
Country: | Me 109 G vs Macchi 205 N Orione The Daimler engined fighters debate:
Both fighters were powered by the DB 601 A-1 engine rated 1475 hp. (Italian version Fiat RA 1050 was built under license, and was identical with the original Daimler Benz powerplant)
The legendary Messerschmitt was among the top fighters of WW2.A closer look in the Macchi fighter though, may convince us that the Italian design was superior.
What is your opinion?
Ps
Kawasaki ki 61 I Hien was another axis fighter powered by the same powerplant (DB 601 A 1100 hp)which fought ''very well'' against a Me 109 E..
Last edited by DIOGENIS : 09-09-2006 at 04:01 PM.
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09-09-2006, 04:54 PM
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#2 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: London
Posts: 2,606
| The Ki61 fought 'very well' against most planes the USA could throw at it let alone a 109E |
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09-09-2006, 05:51 PM
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#3 | | Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: thessaloniki
Posts: 46
Country: | Both aircraft weigh 2600 to 2800 kgs, with major differences in span (me 109 :9.04m, macchi 205:11.25 m).Possibly the me 109 could roll better , but the macchi fighter should be more manoeurable and perform better in higher altittudes due to it's lower wing loading.The slats in me 109's wings played a part in dogfighting, but on the other hand during the big war most succesfull fighters operated without them (in fact i don't recall any of them having slats) . |
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09-09-2006, 05:57 PM
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#4 | | Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: thessaloniki
Posts: 46
Country: | The same with Macchi 205 N applies for the ki 61 also, but it was even lighter than the 205N, and with a bigger wing!
Last edited by DIOGENIS : 09-09-2006 at 06:01 PM.
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09-10-2006, 04:17 AM
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#5 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
Posts: 615
| Who knows? The MC205 N 'Orione' was completed only in a couple of prototypes, words are that it was better than the contemporary Bf109G and it makes sense, since the 'Macchi 200 Mk III' (or MC205V) was at least on par with the best of the bunch, having finally closed the gap on armament.
But production of the 205N never started because of the armistice and because the Germans decided to standardize production on their models that were also easier to build (and this makes sense too)
Btw the engine was the DB605, not 601.
__________________ He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams |
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09-10-2006, 09:31 AM
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#6 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,129
Country: | Well I let history speak for itself on this one and in that case the 109G wins for me.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" |
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09-10-2006, 05:00 PM
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#7 | | Member
Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: thessaloniki
Posts: 46
Country: | My mistake parmigiano, DB605 indeed. |
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09-10-2006, 09:08 PM
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#8 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,381
Country: | 109 for me too. After all, the impact it had on the war was much greater than the Macchi. Italy wasn't involved in as many fronts as Germany was and their fighters weren't as numerous. But the Me was still up there right with it's biggest envy the Spitfire. I don't know what plane the allied pilots were more afraid of.
I bet often what they met more in greater numbers. And that would be the Me 109.
__________________ 
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Last edited by Soundbreaker Welch? : 09-10-2006 at 09:20 PM.
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09-11-2006, 05:50 AM
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#9 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,129
Country: | Agreed, nice siggy there too.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" |
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09-11-2006, 06:14 AM
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#10 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
Posts: 615
| I think there is no doubt for '205N' vs '109G'.
Maybe a correct comparison could be 205V vs 109G-6: they were contemporary and the production (about 250) of 205V was enough to have some opinion on performances.
Of course we should limit the pool to pure performances evaluation (like when we talk about the Ta152), if we consider effective deployement, numbers produced, impact on the war etc. there is no comparison.
__________________ He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams |
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09-11-2006, 08:50 AM
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#11 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,129
Country: | Has there ever been a comparison of the two in areas such as maneuverability, speed and so forth?
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" |
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09-11-2006, 09:09 AM
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#12 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 28,129
Country: | We can make a comparison off of performance:
Max Speed
Bf-109G-6: 398 mph
M.C. 205: 399 mph
Cieling
Bf-109G-6: 38,550 ft
M.C. 205: 37,950 ft
Rate of Climb
Bf-109G-6: 3,345 ft/min
M.C. 205: ????
Range
Bf-109G-6: 447 Miles
M.C. 205: 530 Miles
Armament
Bf-109G-6: One 30mm MG 108 cannon firing through hub.
Ammunition: 60 Rounds
Or
One 20mm MG 151 cannon
Ammunition: 150 Rounds
And
Two 13mm MG 131 machine guns above engine.
Ammunition: 300 rpg
M.C. 205: 2x 12.7 mm MG with each 400 rounds on cowling
and
2x 20 mm cannons with each 250 rounds in wings
Basically based off of performance they were pretty much equal. The only thing to go off of is maneuverability now.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" |
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09-11-2006, 11:00 AM
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#13 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Campospinoso (PV), Italy
Posts: 615
| I have found this for the 205,
Tipo
Macchi Mc.205
"Veltro"
Motori
DB.605/A o RC.58
Potenza
hp 1.475
Apertura alare (wing span)
m 10,50 (34,45 ft)
Lungh. tot.. (lenght)
m 8,85 (29 ft)
Alt. tot. (height)
m 3,05 (10 ft)
Superf. alare (wing area)
m2. 16,80 (181 sq ft)
Peso a vuoto (empty weight)
kg 2.524 (5.609 pounds)
Peso max (max weight)
kg 3.224 (7.164 pounds)
Velocità max (max speed)
km/h 650 a 7.400 m (403 mph @ 24.280 ft)
Autonomia (range)
km 1.040 (645 miles)
Quota di tangenza (ceiling)
m 11.350 (37.200ft)
The weight for Bf 109 G6 I have found is 2.700 kg (5.900 lb) empty and 3.400 kg (7.500 lbs) max.
Wing area is (should be? I've started to trust the sources like pre-owned car dealers...) 16,36 sqm or 179 sq feet
If so, wing load for the MC205 is 150 (empty) and 192 (max), for the 109G respectively 173 and 218 kg/sqm
The only rate of climb data I've found is for the MC202, 1.086 mt/min (3.563 ft/min): being the 205 about 100 to 300 kg heavier but with a lot more power (about 300 hp) the 205 should be equal or a bit better. (airframe was almost identical)
If the data are correct, the 205 should be a bit more maneuvrable, mainly because of a lower wing load, but the 109's slats were probably an advantage in low speed flight and we have no data about comparison of controls effectiveness.
Also to remark that several sources reports that the AR built DB605 was performing a bit worse than the original. Again a mess, because it seems that several MC205 were fitted with the German built DB605.
.. so, it looks pretty close to a tie, it looks that all the top fighters were in a narrow range and that the pilot could always make the difference. Hmmm... I believe to have already read this!
__________________ He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife. - Douglas Adams
In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were real men, women were real women and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri. - Douglas Adams
Last edited by Parmigiano : 09-11-2006 at 11:39 AM.
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09-12-2006, 07:38 AM
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#14 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Cyprus
Posts: 303
| Bf-109 G is a rather general term. I went with the Gustav, because as far as performance is concerned, it's later versions were rather superior to the Macchi.
__________________ 
And now for something completely different... |
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09-13-2006, 03:30 AM
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#15 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,381
Country: | Thanks, DerAdlerIstGelandet. And yours shows what a great plane the Bf was.
__________________ 
"His motor's conked out!"
"What's the differance, they're all Nazis!"
"Luke, shut up!"
"Fear the hook!"
"Oh.....I wanna fly."
"You mean the kind that go under water and fly up the stairs?"
"What you doing? Oh Nooooo!" |
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