Me-262

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and that the 262 was invinsible.....................................

[GermansRGeniuses]

Originally Posted by plan_D

I read the EKdo 262 started armed flights in July 1944 and the first to be shot down by them were two F-5 Lightnings and a PR. Mosquito. And that unit became Kommando Nowotny.

Nah, it was April '44.

[Erich]

the date was 26 July 1944 with Lt Schreiber claiming 1 mossie downed but in actuality the Mossie landed without problem.

Schreiber scored or claimed the second kill of the 262 in August 2, of 44, this being over a Spitfire. Lt Weber scored the third claim on August 8, 1944 over a Mossie

[Huckebein]

IMHO the '262 alone couldn't have won the war, even had it been in service by late '43, a year earlier than it was. It would have established complete, but temporary, air-superiority, but then all that would be needed to counteract them would be to flood Europe with P-51s etc, watching the jets' bases. We all know how vulnerable the Schwalbe was on takeoff and landing, and they would always have been heavily outnumbered. Barring the early introduction into active service of first-class prop-fighters to cover the jets near the ground (such as the Dora 9, which could have been ready in '43 were it not for interfering beaurocrats), the Allies would simply have had to fight a very costly war of attrition withh the jets: thousands of high-performance prop-fighters constantly harrassing a few hundred (max) jets. Once they were under control, the bombing of industry could begin, and there'd be no way back for the Nazis...

No, the '262, after say 1942, was not a war-winner all on its own.

[GermansRGeniuses]

Beaver, there would be more than hundreds of jets, they Germans completed a bit (about 42) more than 1,300!

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the 262 couldn't have won it on it's own, there was nothing they could do about the advance through France and into Germany after D-Day.................

[plan_D]

If the Luftwaffe had a large enough number of Schwalbes during the Normandy campaign, I think they could have stopped the Allies advance. The Germans weren't short on people, and they had plenty (greatly superior) tanks to combat the Allied tanks.
It was Allied Air Superiority that forced the Wehrmacht to move at night, and be strafed and bombed during the day. In my opinion if the Me-262 was around during D-Day (in large enough numbers) it could have stopped, or at least delayed, the Allied invasion. It would have gained air superiority easily.

[dead parrot]

Am I right in assuming that the landings were planned and carried out on assumption of (essential) local air supremacy? If the allies did not have this because of the presence of Me262s in force, I wonder if they would have delayed the entire operation until they could defeat the Me262s, sort of like a Battle of Britain in reverse.

[ev0]

One aircraft can not change the course of a war on its own if you talk realisticly. In the scale that the aircraft would have to be produced and armed it would not have been possible.

[Erich]

no the Allies had to move as this was a request from Stalin so the Soviets could engae in a more offensive manner, also the Allies in the south coming up the butt of Italy. so in essence this was a three-pronged move.
i do not feel the Luftwaffe even with the Schwalbe could of overtaken the supreme numbers of Allied craft on 6 of June. although this of course is a huge what if the a/c was just too short term with limited range and quirkey engine troubles. Granted if all of this had been worked out we would of heard of jet a/c hitting beyond 650 mph in the flat out, as the me 262 was suppose to have a more smooth re-streamlined fuselage and roomier cockpit.........but of course this is all unknown

[Huckebein]

They did make over a thousand '2652s, yes, but only a few saw service because of engine troubles and a chaotic trnsport infrastructure caused by the Allies' Tactical bomber forces. To have more than a thousand '262s flying, taking into account real-world aircraft/ transport serviceability/ reliability figures, the actual production number per month for Me 262s would have been far too high for Germany's Aircraft Industry to cope with.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

To have more than a thousand '262s flying

you make it sound like they were all up ther at the same time, which they weren't, i think you ceem to think that the 262 was invincible, but it wasn't.....................

[dead parrot]

Originally Posted by Erich

no the Allies had to move as this was a request from Stalin so the Soviets could engae in a more offensive manner, also the Allies in the south coming up the butt of Italy. so in essence this was a three-pronged move.

Yes, but Stalin also wanted them to go in 43 too, but the allies decided they weren't ready-Italy was a compromise, of sorts.

I know it is a far-fetched what if, but if the German jets could've brought a virtual end to strategic bombing in Germany, and thus freed the Luftwaffe to move back into France, and if the jets then allowed the Luftwaffe to acquire the kind of local air superiority that the allies actually enjoyed, the overlord invasion would have been a whole different proposition...

[Lightning Guy]

There were only about 300 Me-262s to actually make it into service.

[plan_D]

There was no attack on Allied shipping while in the channel on 6th June. This was due to not only local but operational air superiority. We ruled the skies.
Had the 262 been ready in large enough numbers attacks would have been happening on that invasion force. A Mustang, or any other plane for that matter, didn't have much chance to stop them diving down on the ships.

As for the four-engined bombers well JG7 (Erich-correction may be in order) if I remember claimed 427 kills in its first month 300 of them were four-engined bombers.