Me-262

cheddar cheese · 12-04-2004, 12:11 PM

Ok...

Karaya_1 · 12-06-2004, 05:00 AM

Always the old rumor.....there were NO reliable jet engines in the early 40's so forget the old dreams of jets before 1944...
And the Zero was a good fighter, but also a good lighter (hey, what a poem !), so every hit by a Spitfire or a Hurricane would have been the end of it....

12-06-2004, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karaya_1

Always the old rumor.....there were NO reliable jet engines in the early 40's so forget the old dreams of jets before 1944...
And the Zero was a good fighter, but also a good lighter (hey, what a poem !), so every hit by a Spitfire or a Hurricane would have been the end of it....

Early Spitfires were not particularly durable either. When early Spitfire's met the Zero in the Pacific theater, the Spitfires died.

cheddar cheese · 12-06-2004, 12:04 PM

Hurricanes on the other hand...tough as old boots

the lancaster kicks ass · 12-06-2004, 01:51 PM

easy to repair as well.............

cheddar cheese · 12-06-2004, 03:36 PM

delcyros · 03-02-2005, 02:41 PM

I´m new here, great site!
And what a poll!

I voted for "no". And I would suggest to say "no way". Why? Well, It could have prolonged the war, IF it would have been fielded in numbers in erly 1944, prior to the allies oil bombing campaigns. It wasn´t.
And it could NEVER have such a big impact to the battles with russian forces, or their airforces because they did not use heavy bombers for strategic bombing. The Me-262 was perhaps the best interceptor, maybe. it never was kind of an air-superiority-fighter.

Udet · 03-02-2005, 03:15 PM

Come guys, are there any wizards around?

None of us can tell for sure whether the Me 262 could have turned the odds of the war in favor of Germany had it been deployed in significant numbers, say, by the beginning of 1944.

Let´s think Hitler and some of those bureacrats of the Reich did not order ludicruous requirements such as making a dive bomber out of the Me 262 and that they did not obstruct developing of new projects at the early stages of the war and the Luftwaffe has a fleet of 500 operational jets in service as of January 1st, 1944.

Losses of heavy bombers were high for the USAAF throughout 1944. The jets entered service in limited numbers and kind of too late, still they proved their worth.

(i) 500 operational jets in early 1944 could have certainly contributed to an even higher casualty rate in the USAAF, diminishing the amount of damage to German industry and communication networks: more tanks, artillery and aircraft are therefore produced.

(ii) Even more escort fighters are required to protect the bomber boxes, perhaps diminishing to some degree the free sweeps of fighter-bombers harrasing movement of German ground forces. The armament produced in accordance with point (i) reaches front lines faster and in far better shape.

(iii) Do not forget the USA, despite its large population, was not the USSR. The government of the USA did not have, at all, the contempt and scorn for human life as it was with the bolsheviks. Losses were high for the USAAF; an even higher loss rate would have brought consequences hard to assess in the USA.

(iv) Protracting the war for a reasonable period of time (what is reasonable? 1 and a half year?) plays in favor of Germany. Protracting the war means Germany continues to be capable of waging a war and that the enemy armies are still perhaps reasonably far from its borders. Who knows...perhaps London continues to receive rains of V-2s.

The Me262 by itself could perhaps not win the war; it is even ridiculous to think of such an option. But the indirect effect of a far more significant deployment of the jets at the right phase of the war, who knows, could have brought consequences of relevant magnitude, and the outcome of the final battle should be one withheld.

03-02-2005, 04:57 PM

But again, the proposition that it might somehow have been deployed in signficant numbers starting at the beginning of 1944 is the real issue. It could not be, Germany couldn't build the engines!

And, had they been able to do so, that implies almost every other aspect of their war industry would have been able to produce more too.

Being realistic, lets be generous and suppose Germany had been able to field 400 Me262's by mid 1944, and a total of 1000 by the end of the war. Would it have prolonged the war - I doubt it! If it had, it would only have amounted to a month or two.

=S=

Lunatic

reddragon · 03-02-2005, 05:02 PM

I believe if it had been used as a fighter from the beginning as intended, it may have brought an end to daylight bombing, but I don't think it would have won the war for the Axis. Russia was bleeding the Germans very badly by the time it was introduced.

03-02-2005, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddragon

I believe if it had been used as a fighter from the beginning as intended, it may have brought an end to daylight bombing, but I don't think it would have won the war for the Axis. Russia was bleeding the Germans very badly by the time it was introduced.

It's been shown that even had all the 262's been used as fighters, it would have made only a minimal increase in the number of 262's available for anti-bomber work - perhaps something like 60-80 over the course of the war, and the only real change would have been when they got to combat, a difference of a few months. The whole "Hitler screwed up the 262 by trying to make it a bomber" argument has been largely debunked. Messershmitt largely ignored the request for bomber versions anyway, only delievering a small quantity, most of which were later converted back to fighter versions.

Less than 400 Me262's were operational during the war - that includes the bomber versions. That was the extent of Germany's ability to manufacture the engines, and many of those units flew very few sorties. Typical engine life was well under 10 hours (I'd bet 4 hours would be generous), including ground and flight testing.

=S=

Lunatic

mosquitoman · 03-02-2005, 05:59 PM

Great plane as the Me262 was, it could never win the war unless the Germans had also developed a nuke, slung it underneath a 262, an Ar234 or a He177 and delivered it to London

03-02-2005, 06:27 PM

If they'd have done that Germany would have been a wasteland within a week - the British would have retaliated with gas and anthrax.

=S=

Lunatic

mosquitoman · 03-02-2005, 06:35 PM

Good point, hadn't thought about that

Udet · 03-02-2005, 08:19 PM

RG_Lunatic:

You ought to double check your comments.

"It's been shown that even had all the 262's been used as fighters, it would have made only a minimal increase in the number of 262's available for anti-bomber work - perhaps something like 60-80 over the course of the war, and..."

What does that have to do with anything?

I´ve said here, that even with the small numbers of jets which saw service the worth of the machine was proved. Are you going to dispute this?

No one has ever suggested that if the whole Me262s produced during the war had been deployed in the fighter role exclusively, the outcome of the war could have bee different, nobody has. Remember? Too little too late!

Many of the dreaded P-51s went down in flames against the jet.

That the Me262 got delayed because Hitler wanted it to be a bomber is real, but no the definitive reason to not have a large fleet of jets. The fundamental cause for the delay of the massive production of the jet was the order to either postpone or cancel many projects that would not reach immediate service in the early stages of the war.

The point is, had the fool bureaucrats in Germany not obstructed the Me262 in the many ways they did, the Luftwaffe INDEED could have had a fleet of some hundreds of operational jets during the first half of 1944.

That the jet by itself could have changed the course of the war is another issue; yet, the answer for that is a flat NO. I digress, to even think of such possibility is silly.

The P-51 by itself did not alter the course of the war. It was rather the combination of the usage of the Mustang with many other planes that helped achieving final victory.

Exactly the same applies for every fighter, bomber, tank or weapon which saw service during the war: no weapon helped changing the course of the war all by itself, without the aid of other weapons.

Getting back on topic i stick to my comments: had they had a fleet of 400-500 operational jets by early 1944, the outcome of the war is a withheld one.