Me262 vs. P-80

kiwimac · 11-09-2005, 01:25 PM

Yes it is and so the amount of R & D the Germans managed is truly phenomenal. Let's just remember we lose nothing by admitting that the Germans had superior materiel for most of the war and were quite definitely ahead of the allies in innovative tech.

The problem, of course, was that Nazism, as a philosophy is inherently conservative and so the dissonance was profound. But that is a discussion for another thread!

Kiwimac

FLYBOYJ · 11-09-2005, 04:06 PM

Very True!

delcyros · 11-09-2005, 05:21 PM

We already have discussed the jet tech matter.
I would partly go with Plan_D here. Except for:
*Nene was the most powerful Engine of ww2
I believe this belongs to a prototype of the BMW-018, bench tested
in october 1944 right before it should take off in a Hs-130E testbed.
The two prototypes have been destroyed during a bomb raid in october 1944.
There are little documentations left to proof, but it should be noted that no
engine will go on a plane first and on a benchtest second. The weight of the V-1 was around 2.500 Kg, very heavy indeed (serial versions should weight around 2.200 Kg), the max thrust was around 3.500 Kp (7.700 lbs) estimated. Until april, 3rd most parts of the V-3 and some of the V-4 have been produced, destroyed in order to prevent them from falling into US hands. The Jumo-012 jet engine was way inferior in development stage compared to the BMW-018. Beside of this the BMW-003 E2 was - in my minds- the best german jet engine of ww2, if you factor things like performance, thrust rating, spool up time, reliabilty, lifetime, thrust to weight factor, numbers produced and units put into ww2 fighter (in this case the He-162 A1/A2 exclusively). In the timeframe from turn 44/45 to mid may 45 it was probably the best jet engine in active service world wide. The Jumo-004 E and Dervent V weren´t that bad either but they belong to some prototypes and preserial engines only in this timeframe.
The Nene was better but they had no plane to be fitted with the Nene in ww2. You may say that the US build J-33 and J-36 are excellent designs also, but they have been proofed to be unreliable in this timeframe plus there are only very few planes fitted with them in ww2. However, their performance is better. Generally it is not right to say axial or radial engines are better, esspeccially in this timeframe. I expect that radial engines are more reliable and not that fuel gulping, while axial engines allow a cleaner aerodynamic design. Deeper digging reveals that fuel gulping may be the case for BMW-003A and Jumo-004B but not for - for example- the axial DB-006. Each philosophy has it´s own advantages and disadvanteges and generally spoken, radial engines safe weight up to a thrust rating of arounf 5000 lbs.

plan_D · 11-09-2005, 05:24 PM

Well, during the first three years of war, Germany was only on par or advanced beyond the Allies in the aerodynamic field. In everything else they were behind practically. What made them such a powerful force was the tactical ability and the genius General Staff.

And, Parm, centrifugal engines are still used to this day on helicopters. And the Rolls Royce Nene was still the most powerful engine of the war at 5,000 lbs thrust.

No proof, no sale, del. And we've been through this estimated 7,700 lbs ...

delcyros · 11-09-2005, 05:56 PM

Actually I said little proof. Not no proof.
It is proofen that parts of the V-1 and V-2 prototypes have been completed till september 44, it is proofen that at least the parts of the V-2 have been assembled in late september 44 (BMW source) and it is proofen that the Hs-130 E testbed was prepared for taking a BMW-018 prototype jet engine in the air in december 44 (source is dated to oct. 12th.). It is also proofen that - from november 44 till wars end and beyond- all engineerers calaculated with the weight and thrust of 7.700 lbs for the BMW-018 and I see no reasons to deny this technically (three stage turbine!). It should be noted that prior to october 44 this engine was nominally called "BMW Gerät der 3.000 Kp Klasse", it wasn´t prior to it´s assembling and (unproofen) testing that this changed to 3.500 Kp (keep in mind that testbeds usually result in higher thrust outputs than serial engines, this was the case for Jumo-004 A, Nene and others). So far there has come not a single evidence for its bench test to daylight, but I don´t wonder. We may have different opinions here, Plan_D. But You know: The winner takes it all.

plan_D · 11-09-2005, 06:47 PM

It's got nothing to do with winner's taking it all ...it's got all to do with this unproven engine. You, and they, claim it was at 7,700 lbs ...but there's no proof!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-10-2005, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parmigiano

..- swept wing theory was presented in a meeting in Rome around 1935 by a German guy (don't remember details but I can document it once I get home). Research on swept wing planes was way ahead in Gemany by 1945, production designs were ready to go in production. No other nations was even close to that.

It was Dr. Adolf Busemann, a scientist from the Aerodynamic Experimental Institute in Goettingen, Germany. It was at the Volta Conference held in Rome from Sept. 30, 1935 to Oct 6, 1935. Basically everyone there laughed at him and did not believe in his theory and research.

delcyros · 11-10-2005, 01:27 PM

It should be noted that also german scientists disbelieved his maths. It wasn´t prior to very late 44 that DFS mathmatics developed a suited calculation method for transsonic speeds.
However, the trans- and supersonic windtunnels confirmed his theories in 1940/41.
By the way, Plan_D, the problem is that a lot of valid files are lost because of various reasons. I spent a lot of time in the archives to read the BMW / RLM files, some of them are privately owned. This is producing a lot of frustration from the missing documentation because of destruction caused by germans or bombings or becuase it simply disappeared in archives, splitted to different owners (Who overtook the BMW files in post war time? Why wasn´t more than 15 % of the material handled back in the mid 70´s?) and so on.
I just said that there indeed is a probability that the BMW-018 was testbenched in late 1944, and You cannot deny this. How big or small this probability is belongs to the accessable files and is arguable. I just want You to keep it´s possibility in mind.
Personally, I rate the Nene about equal or better (it simply weighted less than one third of the BMW-01

while the BMW-018 has more power and is more developable.

plan_D · 11-10-2005, 05:14 PM

Has more power? You mean, could have had more power. You haven't got proof that it did have more power. Yeah, alright, there's possibility it did ...but, as always, no proof, no sale.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-11-2005, 07:20 AM

From all my sources the 109-018 BMW 018 had 7490 lb of dry thrust.

plan_D · 11-11-2005, 09:53 AM

Estimated 7,000 + lbs thrust ...the actual records of bench testing results don't exist. So there's no proof!

Parmigiano · 11-11-2005, 10:29 AM

Ok PD, in 1982 Italy won 3-2 with Brazil in one of the best soccer match ever played in a world cup.
Countless discussions followed, where Brazil supporters stated that their team was actually the best, and would had won 8 out of 10 times with Italy.
But they had no proof, since the two teams never met again with the same players, and it was useful to me to bring this point...
... but I KNOW that they were right !

Sounds similar to some of the discussions in this forum?

plan_D · 11-11-2005, 10:33 AM

Okay, the Spitfire could reach 1,000,000,000 MPH on 20% throttle. I know I don't have proof ...but it could have done it.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · 11-11-2005, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parmigiano

Ok PD, in 1982 Italy won 3-2 with Brazil in one of the best soccer match ever played in a world cup.
Countless discussions followed, where Brazil supporters stated that their team was actually the best, and would had won 8 out of 10 times with Italy.
But they had no proof, since the two teams never met again with the same players, and it was useful to me to bring this point...
... but I KNOW that they were right !

Sounds similar to some of the discussions in this forum?

LOL that is a funny way to put it. However you are correct. If something does not suit someones own beliefs nothing can be true other than what they know and there is no way it can be true. They demand proof. Now if it goes for there cause, proof is not needed. It has to be true!

kiwimac · 11-11-2005, 09:41 PM

We are discussing possibilities here, the ME 262 and P-80 never met, except perhaps in the universe next-door, you know, the one where the Nazis won?

Kiwimac