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11-12-2005, 01:20 AM
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#181 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country:  | Yes you are correct in that.
__________________  US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | 
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11-12-2005, 05:25 AM
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#182 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg)
Posts: 1,538
| Well, I may admit that there might be another possibility, too:
The engine was testbenched, overrewd and it blasted away. Our records donīt confirm this version (since we have proof that V-1 and V-2 were lost during bombing raids) but it is possible, yes.
Technically, the BMW-018 was well able to exceed 7.000 lbs of static thrust (diameter: 1250 mm, compression rate 7 to one, 12 stage axial compressor, three stage turbine combined with a very high airflow could well result in 3.500 Kp at 6.000 rpm), the Spitfire, however, was unable to exceed 1000 mp/h, we donīt need a proof here.The Nene was testbenched in october 44 and our records confirm that it eventually exceeded 5.000 lbs of thrust in early 45 on the testbench.
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---delcyros--- | |
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11-12-2005, 09:50 AM
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#183 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | Good info there.
There is an interesting website that gives some statistics for jet engines. http://www.jet-engine.net/miltfspec.html
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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11-13-2005, 03:44 PM
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#184 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg)
Posts: 1,538
| I must say it shouldnīt play any role here, since the BMW-018 was unable to be fitted into a Me-262 airframe.
I checked out the max speed of ww2 variants once more.
The Me-262 C1a was about 975 Km/h ~ 608 mp/h
Me-262 C-2b was 950 + Km/h, 593+ mp/h
Me-262 C3 -unknown, prototype did not fly
It would be helpful to duoblecheck the performances with other sources, so any help would be fine.
(source: J. Dressel/M. Griehl: Die deutschen Raketenflugzeuge 1939-1945 (Augsburg 1995), page 101.)
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11-13-2005, 03:50 PM
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#185 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | That is pretty much the info I have. However I believe the Me-262C's could only achieve that high speed with the Walter Rocket that was installed in the tail. The design was meant to recieve an extraordinary climb rate so as to reach the bombers. It was a point defence interceptor.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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11-13-2005, 04:28 PM
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#186 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg)
Posts: 1,538
| Thatīs my understanding, too. There was enough fuel to operate for around 20-26 min in case of the -C1a with a max climb of 2,2 min to 10.000m altitude. In the end thatīs more than the Me-163 B had but too less to be used for anything except point defense as you said.
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---delcyros--- | |
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11-13-2005, 04:31 PM
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#187 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | I dont believe the Walter would have eneogh fuel for 20 minutes in the 262. Once they got to alltitude anyhow and the rocket burned off they were just using the 2 Jumos.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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11-14-2005, 04:31 AM
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#188 | | Hairy one of Old Judea
Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Deepest Darkest NZ
Posts: 1,143
Country:  | man, 10k in 2.2 minutes, thats quick!
Kiwimac
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11-14-2005, 05:19 AM
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#189 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | For WW2 that is quick.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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11-14-2005, 01:37 PM
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#190 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg)
Posts: 1,538
| Yes. 20 min is the maximum flight time for full power (jet engines) at sea level. The rocket fuel was burned out after a max of 4-6 min. So it could be used to climb and accelerate. I always disliked that mixture of high volatile rocket fuel and jet fuel. Fast climbing, rocket-jet propelled interceptors did got out of use after the wide distribution of jet engines with afterburner.
A Me-262 with Jumo-004-E or F would be more wise.
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11-14-2005, 01:46 PM
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#191 | | Master of Ewes
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country:  | here's a what if, what if the Me-163 had been fitted with a small jet engine, such as the 004? would it've worked?
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"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy." | |
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11-14-2005, 02:10 PM
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#192 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Berlin (Kreuzberg)
Posts: 1,538
| In case of the Me-163 B I would say no (probably).
The fuselage was too short and the shift of cg with an over 1000 lbs
heavier engine would render the airframe uncontrollable.
The lack of a useful landing gear is also problematic.
A stretched airframe (Me-163 C/D/Me-263) is more reasonable.
Actually were have been several projects by Dr. Lippisch to
replace the rocket egnine with a BMW-003 or Jumo-004. In the end he transformed the Me-263 and He-162 into a useful airframe, Lippisch P-15. The front fuselage, including cockpit section and weaponry would have been taken from the He-162 A, the wings from the Me-263. The rear fuselage and the wingroots with air intake would have been needed to be the only new components. A HeS011 engine should give it a speed of around 625 mp/h (calculated according to the maths of march 45*).
You could also replace it with a BMW-003 E, saving over 1000 lbs of weight (for a reduced top speed of around 570 mp/h). Thrust to weight ratio, wingload and speed would have been excellent, as would the handling according to the Me-263 glider tests. Beside of Mock ups and wind tunnel models there was nothing left.
I expect that the plane could be realized pretty soon by overtaking of most parts from other serial build planes.
*) it wasnīt until early 45 that german methmatics developed a solution to calculate speeds at transsonic speeds correctly
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11-14-2005, 02:37 PM
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#193 | | Der Crewchief
Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Ansbach, Germany
Posts: 30,270
Country: | I agree with that conclusion.
__________________ US Army Blackhawk Crewchief 2000-2006 Classic ww2aircraft.net quotes: fly boy said: "isn't that the first jet bomber? becasue i have flown one in a flight sim before and i know how it handles" "wait what ok who made the b-2 crash come on people that messed up its a b-2" "ah yes the mistel those things are so annoying is games and in real life" | |
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11-15-2005, 12:21 PM
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#194 | | Master of Ewes
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 19,959
Country: | very interesting to hear your thoughts on that, you're right you'd baisically be sitting on the jet engine so the power to weight ratio would be great, not sure about fuel though 
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"Reminds me of the time I sank the Tirpitz" comments a Spitfire pilot, "One pass of course, old boy." | |
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11-16-2005, 11:40 AM
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#195 | | Konfused with a 'K'
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Turin, Italy
Posts: 20,412
Country:  | It would be like a sort of early EE Lightning...
__________________  with my one last gaping breath id apologise for bleeding on your shirt... | |
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