Me262 vs. P-80

[Cowboy1968]

And yes i have always said that the Me-262 looked very modern in design.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Originally Posted by Cowboy1968

I see a lot of people talking about the Me262 pilots being experienced...yes initially they were experienced pilots. But, as time went on those experienced pilots were shot down and pilots with as little as 10 combat hours were being put into the 262. Nearly 200 of these inexperienced pilots were killed during training.

Now, for what the US was putting into play....we could have very well had jet v. jet during WWII two fighter groups were in the process of transition to the P-80 Shooting Star. both groups were made of very experienced P-51 and P-47 pilots that had experience in dealing with the Swallow. Given the specs of the P-80, and the experience of the Mustang and Thunderbolt pilots..the Shooting Star would have lent itself well with the tactics developed while these pilots were in their prop planes.

Given the fact that the P-80 could out run, out roll, out climb...and the fact that the US was putting their best pilots into the Shooting Stars, while the Germans had used up all their best pilots...I give the edge to the Shooting Star.

That is a myth that the Germans had lost all of there best pilots. For the most part the best pilots were put into the 262 as well. Yes they lost some expirienced pilots for the most part but the Luftwaffe was not depleted of Experten as many like to believe...

Only 2 P-80 became operational in Europe in 1945 and they only flew CAP missions away from the front lines.

Also just like the Me 262 the P-80 had very unreliable engines in 1945. The aircraft was even delayed getting to operational status due to the aircraft being grounded.

Lets see German experienced 262 pilots who survived the war or were not killed until the last few days of war:

Kurt Welter: 63 kills/29 in a Me 262
Franz Schall: 116 kills/17 in a Me 262 (killed Apr 10, 1945 in a landing accident)
Rudolf "Rudi" Rademacher: 126 kills/16+ in a Me 262
Heinz "Pritzel" Bär: 221 kills/16 in a Me 262
Georg-Peter Eder: 78 kills/24 in a Me 262
Erich Rudorffer: 224 kills/12 in a Me 262
Adolf Galland: 104 kills/7 in a Me 262

I can list a lot more, but will not as I dont feel like typing.

Then there are the Luftwaffe Experten (yes some were killed but they were all very experienced pilots at the end of the war.).

Ademeit Horst
Adolph Walter
Adrian Ulrich
Ahnert Heinrich-Wilhelm
Achleitner Franz
Aistleitner Johann
Albrecht Egon
Arnold Heinz
Arnoldy Hans-Jakob
Augenstein Hans-Heinz
Augustin Jacob
Baagoe Sophus
Baake Werner
Babenz Emil
Badum Johann
Bacsila Erwin
Bahr Günther
Bachnick Herbert
Balthasar Wilhelm
Bareuther Herbert
Barkhorn Gerhard
Bartels Heinrich
Barten Franz
Batz Wilhelm
Baudach Heinz-Helmut
Bauer Franz
Bauer Herbert
Bauer Konrad
Bauer Viktor
Becker Martin
Beerenbrock Franz-Josef
Beese Artur
Beisswenger Hans
Belser Helmut
Bendert Karl-Heinz
Bennemann Helmut
Berres Heinz-Edgar
Bertram Otto
Bethke Siegfried
Beutelspacher Ernst
Birkner Hans-Joachim
Bitsch Emil
Bleckmann Günther
Blechschmidt Joachim
Bley Paul
Bob Hans-Ekkehard
Bock Eberhard
Borris Karl
Börngen Ernst
Bösch Oskar
Böwing-Treuding Wolfgang
Brandis Felix-Maria
Brandt Walter
Brock Friedrich
Broennle Herbert
Broch Hugo
Bretnütz Heinz
Bretschneider Klaus
Budde Alfred
Bucholz Max
Burath Eberhard
Burkhardt Lutz-Wilhelm
Carganico Horst
Christl Georg
Clade Josef-Emil
Clausen Erwin
Crinius Wilhelm
Crump Peter



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Dahl Walther
Dahmer Hugo
Denk Gustav
Dickfeld Adolf
Dinger Fritz
Dommeratzky Otto
Dortenmann Hans
Döbele Anton
Döring Arnold
Dörr Franz
Druschel Alfred
Düllberg Ernst
Ebeling Heinz
Ebener Kurt
Eckardt Reinhold
Eckerle Franz
Eder Georg-Peter
Ehlers Hans
Ehrenberger Rudolf
Ehrler Heinrich
Eichel-Streiber Diethelm von
Eisenach Franz
Engel Walter
Engfer Siegfried
Engst Hubert
Erichsen Dieter
Ettel Wolf
Falck Wolfgang
Fink Günther
Franke Alfred
Franz Richard
Franzisket Ludwig
Frey Hugo
Freytag Siegfried
Frielinghaus Gustav
Fözö Josef
Fuss Hans



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Gaiser Otto
Galland Adolf
Galland Paul
Galland Wilhelm-Ferdinand
Gammel Fritz
Geisshardt Friedrich
Gendelmeyer Wolfgang
Gerth Werner
Glunz Adolf
Golinski Heinz
Gollob Gordon Mc
Graf Hermann
Grasser Hartmann
Greiner Georg-Hermann
Greisert Karl-Heinz
Grislawski Alfred
Gromotka Fritz
Gross Alfred
Grünberg Hans
Götz Hans
Hackl Anton
Hafner Anton
Häfner Ludwig
Hagenah Walter
Hahn Hans "Assi"
Hahn Hans von
Hahn Hans
Hahn Franz
Hammer Alfred
Harder Harro
Hartmann Erich
Heckmann Alfred
Henz Helmut
Hermichen Rolf-Günther
Heyer Hans-Joachim
Hirschfeld Ernst-Erich
Hofmann Wilhelm
Hoffmann Heinrich
Hoffmann Reinhold
Hoffmann Werner
Hohenberg Werner
Höfemeier Heinrich
Homuth Gerhard
Huppertz Herbert
Iffland Hans
Iro Ilk



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Jenne Peter
Jennewein Josef
Johnen Wilhelm
Joppien Hermann-Friedrich
Kageneck Erbo Graf von
Kaminski Herbert
Keil Josef
Keller Lothar
Kennel Karl
Kientsch Wilhelm
Kirchmayr Rüdiger von
Kittel Otto
Klemm Rudolf
Knappe Kurt
Koall Gerhard
Koenig Hans-Heinrich
Kolbow Hans
Kornatzki Hans-Günter von
Kosse Wolfgang
Köhne Walter
Körner Friedrich
Krafft Heinrich
Krahl Karl-Heinz
Krupinski Walter
Lang Emil
Lange Heinz
Lasse Kurt
Leie Erich
Lemke Siegfried
Lemke Wilhelm
Lent Helmut
Leschert Heinrich
Leykauf Erwin
Lignitz Arnold
Linke Lothar
Lipfert Helmut
Lippert Wolgang
Litjens Stefan
Loos Walter
Lücke Hermann
Lüddecke Fritz
Lützow Günther



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Machold Werner
Marburg Gerhard
Marquardt Heinz
Matoni Walter
Maximowitz Willi
Mayer Egon
Mayer Hans-Karl
Mayer Wilhelm
Mazurek Marian
Meckel Helmut
Meier Johann-Hermann
Meister Dieter
Meister Ludwig
Menge Robert
Metz Rudolf
Meurer Manfred
Mietusch Klaus
Michalski Gerhard
Missner Helmut
Moritz Wilhelm
Mors August
Munz Karl
Modrow Ernst-Wilhelm
Mölders Werner
Müller Friedrich-Karl
Müller Friedrich-Karl "Nasen"
Müller Rudolf
Müller Siegfried
Müncheberg Joachim
Nacke Heinz
Necesany Kurt
Neu Wolfgang
Neuhoff Hermann
Neumann Klaus
Nowotny Walter
Oesau Walter
Olejnik Robert
Omert Emil
Osterkamp Theo
Ostermann Max-Hellmuth



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Petermann Viktor
Petzschler Horst
Pflanz Rudolf
Piffer Anton-Rudolf
Pingel Rolf
Pöhs Josef
Priller Josef
Puschmann Herbert
Quast Werner
Rademacher Rudolf
Radener Waldemar-H.
Radusch Günther
Rall Günther
Rammelt Karl
Remmer Hans
Reschke Willi
Roehrig Hans
Rohwer Detlev
Rollwage Herbert
Romm Oskar
Rökker Heinz
Rudorffer Erich
Ruhl Franz
Rupp Friedrich
Rüffler Helmut
Sachsenberg Heinz
Seifert Johannes
Schack Günther
Schall Franz
Scheel Günther
Schnaufer Heinz-Wolfgang
Schäfer Hans
Seeger Günther
Seelmann Georg
Scheffel Rudolf
Schellmann Wolfgang
Schiess Franz
Schleef Hans
Schlichting Joachim
Schmid Johann
Schmidt Dietrich
Schmidt Erich
Schmidt Winfried
Schnell Siegfried
Schnörrer Karl
Schott Georg
Schroer Werner
Schöpfel Gerhard
Schulz Otto
Sigmund Rudolf
Sinner Rudolf
Sochatzy Kurt
Sommer Franz
Sommer Gerhard
Specht Günther
Sprick Gustav
Stahlschmidt Hans-Arnold
Staiger Hermann
Stammberger Otto
Steinbatz Leopold
Steiner Franz
Steinhausen Günther
Steinmann Wilhelm
Stolle Bruno
Strassl Hubert
Straznicky Erwin
Strelow Hans
Strüning Heinz
Stumpf Werner



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Tange Otto
Tanzer Kurt
Teumer Alfred
Thiel Edwin
Tietzen Horst
Tichy Ekkehard
Tonne Wolfgang
Tratt Eduard
Trautloft Hannes
Trenkel Rudolf
Ubben Kurt
Unger Willi
Venth Heinz
Vivroux Gerhard
Vogt Gerhard
Wagner Edmund
Wandel Joachim
Weber Karl-Heinz
Weik Hans
Weiroster Gottfried
Weiss Robert
Welter Kurt
Werra Franz von
Wessling Otto
Wever Walter
Wick Helmut
Wiese Johannes
Wilcke Wolf-Dietrich
Willius Karl
Winterfeldt Alexander von
Wintergerst Eugen
Wischnewski Hermann
Wohlers Heinrich
Wöhnert Ulrich
Woitke Erich
Wolf Hermann
Wurmheller Josef
Wurzer Heinrich
Zellot Walter
Zorner Paul
Zweigart Eugen-Ludwig
Zwesken Rudolf


Please go to this website to read further:

Kacha`s Luftwaffe Page

I might be mistaken but I think one of our fellow moderators here Erich helps contribute to this site. Please correct me if I am wrong Erich.

[Parmigiano]

Adler, great site.
One question: are these reliable victories?
Because if so we could finally have some ground for the endless discussion about the effectiveness of the Me262: by adding up the LOWEST possible numbers in the 'Duesenjaeger' list we have 353 kills only for the jet-aces, 40 pilots in total.

That would mean for the 262 a score at least in the range of 400 kills (it seems fairly prudent assessment that all the other about 250 non-jet aces pilots who flew the 262 could have achieved at least another 50 kills in total)

Now: 150 losses for EA (including losses during landing approach) vs 400+ kills is 2.7 ratio : simply astonishing, if we consider the overwhelming odds.

If this numbers are confirmed for me there is no more doubt: in spite of all engine reliability problems the 262 was by far the best combat machine who took the air.
Nothing else could have done that: I mean, take 300 of any other fighter, send them to the missions that the 262 took in the same conditions of numerical disparity and go figure out what they could have achieved.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I can not confirm the 262 kills. I think Erich can shed some light to this.

[FLYBOYJ]

Great post Chris - KICK ASS!

[Erich]

yes it's little ol me that has helped Petr in the past and I wrote up some of the bios for day fighter pilots, gave him some nf pilots as well but he has not printed them out yet.

Welter's score can be disputed with ease, he never scored 63 kills that is fact

JG 7 claimed over 400 US/RAF a/c in the 262. I think the score is also a bit on the high side. Personally ALL the 262 jet units together probably scored maybe 450 kills total kills ..........

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thanks Erich.

What other sites do you help out with and what book titles have you worked on. If you can list them please so I can check out the sites and look up the books.

[pbfoot]

After looking at the list of experten and realizing I know one
I have to ask what is the difference between an ace and an experten?

[Parmigiano]

Well, if Erich's assessment is 'about 450' in total for the 262, my conclusions based on 400+ estimation should not be very wrong...

That's funny, before starting to dig into numbers I was convinced (only by reading magazines and geneal literature) that the 262 had scored no more than 60-70 victories and was more a experiment than a real combat plane.

PS: I think 'experten' is the Luftwaffe way to define an 'ace', not sure if the requirement (5 kills) is the same

[lesofprimus]

Experten translated means experts.... The Luftwaffe recorded results as points rather than kills.... IIRC, 10 points were required for experten classification....

Erich would know...

[Dragontech64]

[quote=DaveB.inVa;34787]Im saying the P-80, it just has more and better dogfighting qualities. Better roll rate, climb, speed, turning radius. More reliable engines with better metalurgy, probably could accelerate a lot better too. The Jumos had to be throttled up fairly slowly or a flameout would occur. Ive never read of this being a problem with the J33!!

Plus 6 .50 Brownings can throw out a lot of lead faster than the MK108's.

In a Flying magazine article I read circa 1988 there was a review of flying the T-33 which stated that the J-33 needed slow throttle action as well, however I wonder if it was any better or worse in that regard than the engines in the Me-262. This was an inherint design limitation of centrifugal flow jet enjines that later, axial flow engines avoid.

For what is worth on teh gun angle, I'm afraid I don't have the knowledge of the different variations on the 50 cal, but I do know that several Me-262's fell to Mustangs using this size and number of guns. Can the reverse be said? True, the large round the Me-262 used would be deadly if it hit something, hence it's use against bombers. As far as I can tell all of Germanys fighters that were for Air Superiority, such as the Me-109 and FW-190 had rapid firing small caliber weapons.

[Jackson]

During the first months of 1945 a number of P-80A prototypes were tested by the USAAF in Italy. The idea was to gather information on the behavior of the new fighter under combat conditions without risking an exposure to the German Luftwaffe.

After the Allied invasion of Italy and the subsequent surrender of Italy in 1943 the southern front had been relatively quiet during 1944. In February 1945 however, the German army launched a counter attack and quickly advanced south through Italy. In their advance they overran the airbase near Rome where the P-80s were stationed.

The US personal tried to evacuate all classified equipment and documents, the P-80s taking of literally minutes before the German army arrived. One of the P-80s suffered an engine failure on takeoff and had to abort. The plane was captured before the pilot could destroy it and was transferred to Rechlin where if was tested by the famous "Beute Zirkus Rosarius".

It received the code T9+YK. It was painted Dark Green RLM 71 over Yellow RLM 04. It was flown in mock combat against the Ta-152 and Me-262. In these simulations it was found superior to the Ta-152 but, except for the engine, the Me-262 was to be preferred. The Me-262 was faster and better maneuverable. After intensive testing the aircraft was transferred to the Heinkel Werke in July. There is was broken up and its construction studied.




not sure if any of this is true

Captured P-80

[Parmigiano]

I never heard about this story, the only documented info of P80 in Italy is about 2 machines stationed in Puglia region (far south than Rome, let's say in the 'heel' of Italy 'boot')
I have also no historical evidence that in feb 1945 the Germans were near Rome: the front was around highway 64, between Tuscany and Emilia region(some 200km north than Rome).
It is hard to believe that the Wermacht, who had to manage the Russians at east and the main Allied offensive at west, would had been so silly to waste resources in an offensive on a secondary front like the southern front was in feb 45.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I too have never heard of anything like that.

[Matt308]

Like many modelling sites, this was a fabricated story to entertain fellow modelers and serve as the basis for a one-off model of the P-80. Cool idea. But fantasy.