Me262 vs. P-80

[syscom3]

I was just looking at the German expected production numbers of the jets.

I doubt the Luftwaffe had a training program in place to allow enough time to get pilots in the cockpits that were minimally qualified for it.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I believe they recieved most of there training in combat.

[Erich]

it was about a 3 hour training session if that long.....

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap and then off to more than likely die.

[balburdio]

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Just for fun, lets compare the Me262 to the P-80, since had WWII proceeded into fall 1945 these two jets would surely have met in combat.

Me262-1A Specifications -
Engines: 2 x Jumo-004B engines with 1,980 lb S.T. (900 kg) each.
Weights - empty: 8,380 lb (3,800 kg) Operational: 14,110 lb (6,400 kg) Maximum: 15,720 lbs (7,130 kg)
Maximum speed - typical: 503 mph (810 kph) @ sea level, 519 mph (835 kph) @ 19,685 feet (6000 m)
Maximum speed - best: 515 mph (825 kph) @ sea level, 540 mph (870 kph) @ 19,680 (using -4A engines)
Cruise Speed: unknown
Initial climb: 3937 fpm (1200 m/min)
Sustained Climb: 6.8 mins to 19,685 ft (6000 m)
Service ceiling: 37,565 ft (11,450 m)
Range: 650 miles (1,050 km) on internal fuel
Gunsight: Revi 16b reflector sight
Armament: 2 x 30mm MK108 cannon with 100 rpg, 2 x 30mm MK108 cannon with 80 rpg, all nose mounted

P-80A specifications -
Engine: One General Electric J33-GE-11 or Allison J33-A-9 with 3,850 lb S.T. (1,746 kg)
Weights - empty: 7920 lbs. Operational: 11,700 pounds Maximum: 14,000 lbs
Maximum Speed - typical: 558 mph (898 kph) @ Sea Level, 577 mph @ 6000 feet (1828 m), 492 mph (792 kph) @ 40,000 ft (12,192 km)
Maximum Speed - best: 624 mph (929 kph) @ unknown alt (probably with -17 4000 lbs S.T. engine, Sept. 1946)
Cruise Speed: 410 mph (660 km/h)
Initial climb: 4580 fpm
Sustained Climb: 5.5 minutes to 20,000 ft (6,096 m)
Service Ceiling: 45,000 ft (1,3716 m)
Range - Normal: 780 miles (1,255 km) Maximum: 1,440 miles (2,317 km) {note: wingtip tanks actually improved performance!}
Gunsight K-14 lead computing gunsight
Armament: 6 x .50 caliber M2 machine guns with 200-225 rpg , 10 x 5" HVAR's or 2000 lbs bombs.

I think the numbers speak for themselves. On top of these figures, the Me262 rolled poorly, the P-80 rolled extremely well. The P-80 also out-turned the Me262. I really cannot see any aspect of the Me262 that beats the P-80.

The P-80 would have blasted the Me262 from the skies with ease!

Let the debate begin!

=S=

Lunatic

Numbers wold speak for themselves...if they were correct.

You are, like all tendencious people do, comparing the best of a type with the worst of anhoter type.
The P-80A didn't perform all that well, in those ages, it was very unreliable with many engine troubles and max speed was only 792Km/h

It then improved with time but so whold the Me

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by balburdio

Numbers wold speak for themselves...if they were correct.

You are, like all tendencious people do, comparing the best of a type with the worst of anhoter type.
The P-80A didn't perform all that well, in those ages, it was very unreliable with many engine troubles and max speed was only 792Km/h

It then improved with time but so whold the Me

WOULDA SHOULDA COULDA

[balburdio]

Originally Posted by Anonymous

I certainly agree. However, when making this particular comparison the "specs" are all we have to go by. The P-80 never faced the Me262 in combat. It did face the Mig-15, but that plane was far superior to either of them.

As for the armament, I totally disagree. The 6 x .50's were far superior for dogfighting than the 4 x MK108's. It is unlikely that the Me262 would have been able to hit the P-80 from any range beyond 100 meters (and even that would require an expert marksmen), where the P-80 could have reached out over 400 meters and touched the 262. The MK108 was an anti-bomber weapon, nearly useless in a high speed dogfight.

Furthermore, the .50 M3 was available at this time, and was in fact mounted on the F8F's, of which 2 carriers full of them were steaming toward Japan on VE day. The .50 M3 BMG fired at 1200 rpm, giving the six guns the firepower of 9 M2's. The .50's could also be loaded with the M23 incendiaries, which reduced effective range to about 250 meters but were specifically made to quickly kill the Me262 (these were in use in early 1945).

=S=

Lunatic

The planes were built for quite diferent porpoises.
The P-80 was still prety much on tests, but intended as an escort fighter. The Me-262 was designed as a bomber killer.
The fact is that both aircrafts are quite hard to maneuver at high speeds since their relatively weak engines wold led to great speed loss.

The specs are all wrong, the P-80A WW2 series performances were:
P-80A
engines: J33-GE11 or J33-A-9 centrifugal flow turbojet at 3850lbst
max speed:
sea level: 558 mph
40.000ft : 492 mph
climb rate : 4580 ft/min (in fact 20.000 ft in 5.5 min)
max ceiling:45.000 ft
range : 780m combat; 1440m max
weapons: 6 .50 cal MGs

ME-262A1:
Engines 2xJumo 004B 1984 lbst totaling 3968lbst , axial flow turbojet
(the axial-flow type performs better as air-speed and altitude increases)
max speed:
sea level : +/- 540 mph
20.000ft : 540 mph
climb rate: 1200m/min (3937 ft/min)
max ceiling: 37.729 ft
range : 650 m
weapons:
Me-262A1a : 4 MK-108 30mm cannon
Me-262A1a/U1 : 2 MK-103 30mm cannon, 2 MK-108, 2 MG-151 20mm
Me-262A-1b : 4 MK-108 , 24 R4/M 55mm rockets
(soon wold be armed with Ruhrstahl/Kramer X-4 wire guided AA missiles)

----
Has for the guns, Me-262s were flown by top german aces, like many P-52 pilots discovered, the Mk-108 cold kill a P-51 with just one shot at it.
And german pilots soon mastered that art.

The early version P-80 was regarded by pilots as a flying dead-trap, many good pilots, WW-II veterans died in it.
----
to finalize, if the war went on, the germans had far better machines than the Me-262 like the:
Ho-229 (607 mph, stealth, wold be armed with the X-4 missile +4 MK-10
He-162 (562 mph, 2 MG 151, wold be armed with MK-10
Focke-Wulf Ta-183 Huckebein (the planed replacement/complement for the Me-262)
speed: 596 mph (expected)
weapons : 4x MK-108
The war ended before initial flights but after the war this design was used in several contries:
russia : MIG-15
sweden: J29 Tunnan
Argentina: Kurt Tank's Pulqui II
all of them were far superior fighters.
The fact is, the germans lost the war because of Hitler megalomaniac ideias, not because they didn't had the "right stuff"

[FLYBOYJ]

Originally Posted by balburdio

The fact is, the germans lost the war because of Hitler megalomaniac ideias, not because they didn't had the "right stuff"

Agree - my point is the P-80 did improve and would of improved much quicker had the war lasted longer. All the mods that went into the "B" and "C" models were ready to be implemented in 1945, the government didn't want any disruption in the production line. Into the "C" models and into the T-33 the aircraft served well, it was reliable and easy to fly.

The statement that many pilots died while flying the early P-80 is not really true. We know about Bong and Tony LeVeir had a compressor wheel come apart on one he was flying, but the P-80 was no more deadly than any other early jet, it fact i believe it was more reliable. What killed pilots in early jets were the fact that they were hard to spool up (engine thrust) and hard to slow down. Many pilots (German, British and American) were killed during takeoff and landing because of this, you had to always be 30 seconds ahead of the aircraft as opposed to high performance WW2 piston engine aircraft

[plan_D]

The Go-229 wasn't stealth. And the X-4 wouldn't be capable of anti-fighter duty, it's cable guided and the mother-ship has to be on a stable run for at least ten seconds before breaking away.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And the 262 was also not originally designed as a bomber killer either. It was a bomber.

[cheddar cheese]

And the Ho-229 and Ta-183 stats are all well and good, but there was no fuel to power them or ammo to arm them. Ta-152's and He-162's were already experiencing this at the wars end and they were already in minor production.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Plus the Ta-183 and the Ho-229 are still speculation since they did not actually fly. The 229 flew as a glider but not under jet power. I personally believe the believed performance for these 2 aircraft to be reasonalbe and believable but we will never know.

[cheddar cheese]

Also had the war gone on longer, Kurt Tank would probably not have gone to Argentina and the Pulqui II would not have materialised at the time.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Maybe it would have materialized in Germany? Who knows?

[cheddar cheese]

Well wasnt the Pulqui pretty much the Ta-183 anyway? If it is then I know.