P-36, P-35 or Wildcat

[R Leonard]

The F4F-3 came from the factory without either armor or self-sealing tanks. Both of these were available in retrofit kits and were installed in the line squadrons aircraft. I believe the Pacific Fleet squadrons got their kits pre-7 December 41. VF-42, the first Atlantic VF to go west was equipped after 7 Dec.

The -3 also was originally equipped with the telescopic sight which was also replaced, although most of that occurred in the late summer of 1941.

Most assuredly, I'd vote F4F over the P-35 or P-36, but what would you expect.

P-36s, actually the H75A export version, and F4F-4s did meet in combat over North Africa with the F4F coming out ahead.

Since I detest typing the same stuff twice, quoting in full my post of 07-20-2005, 11:32 PM,
#29 of http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...at-1550-2.html (Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIB vs. Grumman F4F-4 Wildcat)

I’ve revisited the Operation Torch results. There were a total of 26 victories claimed by USN pilots, 25 by F4F pilots and 1 from an SBD pilot.

Looking at just the 25 F4F claims, two of these (a D.520 and either a Martin 167 or LeO.45) were reported in the USS Sangamon (CVE-26) report, but did not specifically identify pilots involved. By the time of the action reported, these victories would have stemmed from Mission A-02, which involved one 6-plane division and one 4-plane division, all catapulted off between 0610 and 0720 in conjunction with Missions A-01 (8 TBFs in two 4-plane divisions) and A-03 (8 SBDs in two 4-plane divisions). The only F4F pilot I show as identified was Lieut. Fitzhugh Lee Palmer, Jr., the F4F mission leader, who submitted a claim for a Martin 167 in action over the Port Lyautey airdrome at approximately 0800. As noted, the other victories claimed, which reportedly occurred in the same action as Palmer’s, were not credited to any other particular pilot. The information on the activities of VGF-26 typically does not mention actual pilots, in fact, Palmer is the only F4F driver mentioned by name; in the listings I have only 9 pilots are actually named out of 92 sorties. Anyway, we have Palmer with a M.167 and then the two mystery pilots with the D.520 and the M.167/LeO.45. And just to keep things confusing, VGF-26 had one other unidentified Vichy VF and two other unidentified 2E Vichy VB were reported as probables. Again the VGF-26 pilots are not identified.

There also appears to be a problem over in Ranger’s VF-41 on the morning of 8 November in identifying H75As versus D.520s. Across the intervening 63 years we might ask ourselves “how could they not be able to tell the difference?” but I’d suggest that with pilots in their first action, such confusion would be inevitable.

The credited results for aerial combat in F4Fs were:
Lieut.(jg) CV August of VF-41 (USS Ranger) on Nov 8 with 2 H75A
Lieut. MM Furney of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 2 H75A or D520
Lieut.(jg) BN Mayhew of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 2 H75A or D520
Ens. AD Conner, Jr. of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 H75A
Ens. W Taylor of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 H75A or D520
Lieut. Comdr. CT Booth of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 H75A or D520
Lieut. EW Wood, Jr. of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 D520
Lieut.(jg) CA Shields of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 H75A
Lieut.(jg) CA Shields of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 D520
Lieut.(jg) GM Harris of VF-41 on Nov 8 with 1 D520
Lieut. EW Wood, Jr. of VF-41 on Nov 9 with 1 D520 or Me109*
Lieut. Comdr. JA Raby of VF-9 (USS Ranger) on Nov 8 with 1 P63
Ens. LA Menard of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Ens. MJ Franger of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Lieut. Comdr. J Raby of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Lieut. KC Childers, Jr. of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Lieut.(jg) HE Vita of VF-9 on Nov 9 with 1 H75A
Lieut. LF Palmer, Jr. of VGF-26 (USS Sangamon) on Nov 8 with 1 M167
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 (USS Sangamon) on Nov 8 with 1 M167 or LeO45
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 (USS Sangamon) on Nov 8 with 1 D.520
Ens. BD Jacques of VGF-29 (USS Santee) on Nov 10 with 1 Potez 63
* This may have been a photo-recon Spitfire that failed to return from a mission. There was one Vichy D.520 in the area but the pilot reported no enemy contact. There were no German fighters involved in any of the Torch actions.

The lone SBD victory was a DB-7 scored by Ens. DA Pattie of VGS-29 (USS Santee) on Nov 10.

Probables claimed were:

Lieut. TA Grell of VF-41 - 1 D.520 on Nov 8
Lieut. Comdr JA Raby of VF-9 - 1 H75A on Nov 9
Lieut. KC Childers, Jr. of VF-9 - 1 H75A on Nov 9
Ens LA Menard of VF-9 - 1 H75A on Nov 9
Ens MJ Franger of VF-9 - 1 H75A on Nov 9
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 - Unidentified S/E VF on Nov 8
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 - Unidentified 2/E VB on Nov 8
<Unidentified> of VGF-26 - Unidentified 2/E VB on Nov 8

Combat losses were
- In aerial combat:
OS2U (from USS Massachusetts) - Ens C Dougherty & ARM RC Ethridge to H75A, both POW
F4F (VF-41) Ens CE Mikronis to H75A, WIA, POW
F4F (VF-41) Lieut.(jg) CA Shields to H75A, POW
F4F (VF-41) Lieut GH Carter, ditched due to damage from H75A, rescued
F4F (VF-41) Lieut. MT Wordell to H75A, POW

- to AA fire
F4F (VF-9) Lieut.(jg) E Micka, KIA
F4F (VF-9) Ens TM Wilhoite, KIA
F4F (VF-9) Lieut.(jg) SM Amesbury, KIA
F4F (VF-41) Lieut. TA Grell, ditched, AA damage, fuel exhausted, rescued
SBD (VS-41) Ens CE Duffy & ARM3c GE Briggs, both KIA
F4F (VF-41) Lieut.(jg) CV August, POW
F4F (VGF-29) Ens WP Naylor, forced landing, POW
TBF (VGS-29) Lieut(jg) DC Rodeen, ARM DE Balkey, & AMM3c EP Tarsilla, forced landing, all POW
F4F (VGF-29) Ens RW Peterson, forced landing, POW
F4F (VGF-29) Ens E Van Vranken, forced landing, POW
F4F (VGF-29) Ens UL Fretwell, forced landing, POW
TBF (VGS-27) Lieut(jg) RE O’Neill, AOM3c WS Gorka, & AOM3c J Carter, all KIA

- Missing in Action
F4F (VGF-29) Lieut.(jg) GF Trumpeter, Aborted mission with oil leak, MIA

There were also numerous operational losses, takeoff crashes, landing accidents, ditching from fuel exhaustion, or engine failure. I've got all that, but they're not really relevant to the topic.

Some folks involved in this operation. CO of VGF-29 was Tommy Blackburn, later CO of VF-17. TA (“Tag”) Grell was one of my father’s USNA classmates, we used to go to his annual Army-Navy Game parties. MT (“Mac”) Wordell was XO of VF-41; he went on to command VF-44 in the Pacific. CV (“Chuck”) August went on with Mac Wordell to VF-44, was shot down in January 1945 over Formosa and taken prisoner, thus becoming one of the very few to be held as a POW by two different belligerents. Wordell also co-wrote “Wildcats over Casablanca” about his squadron, generally, and his adventures, specifically, in this operation. CT (“Tommy”) Booth went on to become an Admiral, lived a couple of quarters down the street from us at Norfolk NAS in the early 1960s. MJ (“Marv”) Franger was at TacTest with my father in the 1946-1948 period and then later was in VX-3 when my father was XO. Lieut TH (“Hugh”) Winters flew with VF-9 and was slightly wounded, went on to command VF-19 in the Pacific; Winters wrote "Skipper - Confessions of a Fighter Squadron Commander, 1943-1944," a fairly straight foreward account of VF-19. Ens. LA (“Lou”) Menard later flew in VBF-12 and has the distinction of being the first USN fighter pilot to bring down an enemy plane with a rocket, a deed done in February 1945. Lieut.(jg) DS (“Diz”) Laird (VF-41) did not score over North Africa, but later scored 1.5 victories over Luftwaffe snoopers off Norway in Operation Leader; added to his later victories over the Japanese made him the only USN ace with victories over both German and Japanese aircraft. Laird was in VF-171 when my father was CO in the 1948 and the squadron was the Navy’s first operational, carrier qualified, jet squadron. Hamilton McWhorter was in VF-9; went to the Pacific to become the first F6F ace. Lieut. John R Sweeny, another of my father’s classmates and long time family friend flew for VF-41; he passed along to me pieces of the Zero that crashed into USS Natoma Bay. Another classmates was Lieut. HB (“Brink”) Bass, XO of VGF-29, later KIA as CO of VF-74 in Operation Dragoon; Other classmates and long time family friends were Lieut HJ (“Hank”) Weiler (VF-41); Lieut. KG (“Cagey”) Hammond (VF-41); and Lieut. CV Johnson (VS-41).

A few of the Japanese planes shot down at Pearl Harbor were shot down by P-36 drivers. One was creditred to an SBD rear gunner. There wer no F4Fs in action at Pearl Harbor. I believe there was 1 victory credited to a P-35 in the Philippines as well as 2 credits awarded to PAF P-26's.

Rich

[renrich]

Thank you Rich for the info. I may be mistaken but I think I read the first LW a/c shot down by a US plane was a FW Condor shot down by a Wildcat.

[drgondog]

The P-36 was a relatively good airplane and probably equivalent to the F4F-3 so it might boil down to personal preference.

The F4F had a better WWII but in part to the P-40 being a superior a/c for the US~Army than the P-36, and was buying the P-40 to replace P-36 when the Navy had no immediate replacement for the F4F (although one of the Greats was on the drawing board - F4U).

The Poll might be better served as P-40, which replaced the P-36 pre war and was first line fighter for USAAF, versus the F4F (any version)

Otherwise the F4F

[lesofprimus]

Wildcat without a question...

[R Leonard]

Originally Posted by renrich

Thank you Rich for the info. I may be mistaken but I think I read the first LW a/c shot down by a US plane was a FW Condor shot down by a Wildcat.

The Royal Navy was to employ the F4F in combat long before the US Navy. FAA Martlets (export F4F's, model G-36A's, originally earmarked for France but transferred to the Royal Navy after the collapse of France) were active almost a year be fore Pearl Harbor. First air-to-air victory was on 25 December 1940; flying out of Hatson, Lieut. Carter and Sub-Lieut. Parke from 804 Squadron (Lieut. Comdr. BHM Kendall, RN, commanding) intercepted a Ju-88 over Scapa Flow and shot it down near Loch Skail.

[flojo]

Regarding the F4Fs during operation Torch - I wonder if these planes were equipped with water injection. If so it would not be totally fair to compare them with late 1941 Wildcats.
I also remember that there were some british tests which found that the P36 had far better high speed handling than the Spitfire Mk1. So for 1940 - 42 It seems that the P36 was not such a bad plane.

[R Leonard]

Regarding the F4Fs during operation Torch - I wonder if these planes were equipped with water injection. If so it would not be totally fair to compare them with late 1941 Wildcats.

F4F-4s, the fighter flown by the USN in Operation Torch, did not have water injection, no F4F-4 ever did . . . first front line Navy fighters with water injection were the F6F and the F4U.

The F4F-4 was, in fact, heavier than the F4F-3, was less maneuverable, carried 6, vice 4, guns but less ammunition, better factory installed armor and fuel system protection, and, since there was no increase in engine power to offset weight increases, was marginally slower in speed and climbing.

So, truth be known, especially amongst all the F4F-3 and F4F-4 drivers I've ever known (that is, those who flew both in combat) the -3 was a better performer. I guess that's the opposite of what you wanted to hear . . .

Oh, well.

Rich

[flojo]

Originally Posted by R Leonard

F4F-4s, the fighter flown by the USN in Operation Torch, did not have water injection, no F4F-4 ever did . . . first front line Navy fighters with water injection were the F6F and the F4U.

Could be that I mixed it up with tests about water injection I've seen for the FM-2:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...fm-2-16169.pdf

So in operation Torch it were F4-F4 6 gun models and not the newer FM-2s ?
And just for my knowledge - was water injection only tested with FM-2s or also put inoperational service?

[R Leonard]

Could be that I mixed it up with tests about water injection I've seen for the FM-2:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...fm-2-16169.pdf
So in operation Torch it were F4-F4 6 gun models and not the newer FM-2s ? And just for my knowledge - was water injection only tested with FM-2s or also put inoperational service?

No, all the Wildcats in Operation Torch were F4F-4s.

F4F-3s, -4s, and FM-1s used a two stage/two speed supercharger. F4F-3As used single stage/two speed supercharger. Early FM-2s used a single stage/two speed supercharger and later versions had water injection:

F4F-3
Early - Pratt & Whitney R-1830-76 Twin Wasp (two stage/two speed supercharger); 1200 hp; four .50 cal.
Later - Pratt & Whitney R-1830-86 Twin Wasp (two stage/two speed supercharger);1200 hp; four .50 cal.

F4F-3A
Pratt & Whitney R-1830-90 (single stage/two speed supercharger); 1200 hp; four .50 cal.

F4F-4
Pratt & Whitney R-1830-86 Twin Wasp (two stage/two speed supercharger); 1200 hp; six .50 cal.

FM-1
Pratt & Whitney R-1830-86 (two stage/two speed supercharger); 1200 hp; four .50 cal.

FM-2
Early - Wright R-1820-56 (single stage supercharger); 1350 hp; four .50 cal.
Later - Wright R-1820-56WA (single stage supercharger and water injection); 1350 hp; four .50 cal.

First FM-1 flew on 31 August 1942. FM-1s operated during the invasion of Tarawa, 20 November 1943 in VC-39 off USS Liscombe Bay and in VC-41 off USS Corregidor. VC-39s fighter section was a mixed group, with both F4F-4s (5) and FM-1s (11). VC-41s fighter section was all FM-1s (12).

The XF4F-8 (prototype for the FM-2) first flew on 8 November 1942. The first combat for the FM-2 was in the invasion of Kwajalein, beginning 29 January 1944. VC-7 off USS Manila Bay operated 16 FM-2s; whilst VC-66 (USS Nassau) fighter section consisted of 14 FM-1; VC-63 (USS Natoma Bay, 12 FM-1; VC-33 (USS Coral Sea), 9 F4F-4 and 5 FM-1; and VC-41 (USS Corregidor), 3 F4F-4 and 6 FM-1.

VC-7 received its first FM-2s in November 1943 while at Ream Field; the aircraft locator report for 9 November 43 notes the squadron with 2 FM-2 and 12 FM-1 and is the only Pacific squadron noted as possessing FM–2s at that time. In the same report, on the other side of the continent, USS Bogue’s VC-19, at Pungo NAAF, shows 9 FM-1 and 1 FM-2. The 2 November 43 report, and the first time the FM-2 shows up in any squadron inventory, has USS Croatan’s VC-6, just down the road from Pungo at Fentress NAAF, with 9 FM-1 and 1 FM-2.

FM-2s were credited with 428/37/33.5 for 13 losses starting with it's operational debut in January 44.

Not sure at which FM-2 bu no the switch to water injection was made . . . might take a little research to figure that out. However, looking at the report you provided, I see that the bu no of the airplane tested was 16169 which falls in the 15952 to 16791 bu no block of FM-2s, which, oddly enough is the first block of bu nos for that type . . . all 840 of them . . . right at the 218th in line. Of course, there were some 4,559 FM-2s produced after bu no 16169. I’ll look around and see what I can find.


Rich

[renrich]

Interesting F4F fact the F4F7 of which 21 were built, was a long range photo recon a/c. It carried 685 gallons of fuel, 555 gallons in a wet wing.

[timshatz]

Read the specs. It is interesting that the P36 is about 2,000lbs lighter than the F4F and they both have the same engine. Probably different horse power ratings (but I think they both were 1200 horse engines).


P36 link:
P36 Hawk Info

F4F link:
F4F Wildcat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Somehow, these numbers don't look kosher. Anybody have another set of data that might be more accurate. Can't see 2000lbs and 150horsepower putting out the same performance. Especially with the same engine.

Something screwy.

But, on another note, the dimensions look honest and they say the birds were essentially the same size.

[R Leonard]

P-36 used the R-1830-13 which was rated at 1050 hp.

F4F used the R-1830-86, rated at 1200 hp.

Not near my radial engine book right now, I'll take a look tonight.

In the meantime take a look at
Fact Sheets : Curtiss P-36 Hawk : Curtiss P-36 Hawk
and
Fact Sheets : Pratt & Whitney R-1830 : Pratt & Whitney R-1830


Rich

[timshatz]

Cool. Thanks.

I was under the impression that the later P36s were 1200HP engined.

[Heinz]

Wildcat for me, mainly because I love the way the wheels retract into the fuselague

[Lucky13]

Wildcat for me gentlemen.