P-38 or Mosquito?

[Lightning Guy]

P-38 was never needed to be carrier capable as the Navy was well underway with their F7F project. The P-38 was used as a high speed transport. I am unsure of the numbers involved, but several 300 gallon drop tanks were modified to carry up to two stretchers each allowing the P-38 to function as a fast ambulance. Most historians note that the P-38 was retired too early and could have preformed invaluable service over Korea. Anyway, Lockheed was busy churning out P-80s. I still consider the P-38 the better aircraft and believe that the P-38 made a better bomber than the Mossie made fighter.

[the lancaster kicks ass]

fighter varients of the mossie could "mix it" with the best of them, no P-38 could "out bomb" the mossie.......................

[Huckebein]

*sigh*, ok I give up, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I didn't know about the stretcher carrying though, very interesting, thanks. I can see your point regarding the F7F too, although to some extent the same was true for the dH 98, with the dH 102 Sea Hornet well advanced by the time Mossies were cleared for carrier operations. Besides, it's not the point whether or not the P-38 was 'needed to be' carrier operational, the fact is it wasn't. As for Korea, was there much that P-38s could do that the combined efforts of F-80s, F-86s, F-51s, A-26s and F7Fs couldn't, (as well as the odd Meteor and Sea Fury...)?

And your final point? I'm afraid I'll have to very strongly disagree there - the P-38 was a better air-superiority fighter/ dogfighter than the Mossie, but when it came to bombing there was absolutely no comparison. The B.Mk XVI Mossie could carry up to 4.000lbs of explosives and drop them with phenomenal accuracy from low, medium or high level, and whilst unloaded it had a maximum speed of 415mph at 28,000ft and a service ceiling of 37,000ft. I don't know how else to get across the fact that the Mosquito totally out-stripped the Lightning's bombing performance, but there you go...

[GermansRGeniuses]

There you are again you sneaky beaver!

[plan_D]

The most random spammer award goes to GrG.

[Lightning Guy]

Versions of both the P-38Js and Ls were modified to carry either the Norden sight (better than anything the British had) or APS-15 radar. It was very capable of hitting a target from any height. Both models were capable of carrying a 4,000lb bomb. Clean the L version could make 443mph and could reach an altitude of approximately 44,000ft. The P-38 was a very effective bomber, much more effective that the Mosquito was as a fighter. As for Korea, the P-38L was far more effective at ground attack than the F-51 as it had greater firepower, greater payload, and a greater resistance to groundfire.

[Huckebein]

Maybe the F-51, yes, but the A-26 or F7F? Also, although I have twice admitted that the '38 was the better fighter, you still seem to be underestimating the Mosquito's capability against german fighters by quite a margin. Apart from absolute superiority over German twin-engined types (which has to count for something), there are more than a few recorded incidents of retreating FB.VI Mosquitoes turning on their single-engined pursuers and coming out on top. One such machine of a squadron based in South-West England (Cornwall) was damaged on an anti-shipping strike and the port engine began losing power. With another Mossie to escort it, it headed back for England as directly as possible, taking a route that under normal circumstances would have been deemed far too close to the Cherbourg peninsula. They were subsequently spotted by 5 Fw 190s, and after a 5 minute chase, realised that with the damaged Mossie still losing power, the Fw 190s were gradually starting to close on them (once again, under normal circumstances they'd have outrun the Focke Wulfs with ease). The pair decided that they'd have to take the upper hand, and so swung round and charged the '190s head on. In the ensuing melee the damaged Mosquito was further hit, but shot down one Focke Wulf and damaged another. It's escort shot down another one, and the remaining three turned back for France, allowing the pair of Mosquitoes to return safely home.
Also, following a dive-bombing attack on the Marshalling Yards at Ywataung, six Oscars intercepted Mosquitoes of 45 Sqn. One Ki-43 was brought down by the retreating FB. Mk VIs for no loss. The only machine damaged during that raid was one from another squadron. It had been following up the dive-bombing attack at low-level when flying debris (including 2 40 Gallon oil drums and a 10ft long log) hit it, forcing it to crash land at the newly constructed P-47 field nearby. Surely two oil drums and a log hitting a '38 at over 200mph would bring it down without further ado?

As for bombing, the British 'Oboe' radio bombing system was far more accurate at night than the Norden could ever hope to be (for obvious reasons ), and just as accurate during the day. The British also had a very accurate visual bombsight (described in the book 'The Dambusters', which I'll root out later if I can be bothered) used almost exclusively by 617 Sqn's Lancasters (for security and availability reasons - it was more than small and light enough for a Mossie to carry if it had been required of it). With this sight, during an attack on a bridge in Germany, a Tallboy bomb and a Grand Slam 22,000 pounder hit either end of the bridge simultaneously, momentarily lifting the entire concrete span into the air. Whilst it hung there, another Tallboy came down and struck it dead in the centre, causing it to disintegrate in mid-air. I don't think you need to be much more accurate than that...?

Serously, the only point in the entire war when it became seriously dangerous for the Mosquito to operate anywhere in the world was when Me 262B jet nightfighters began taking a toll of Mosquito night-bombers. At any other time or place the Mosquito held its own and exacted a painful toll on the airforce tasked with dealing with it.

PS. "Beaver"? - GrG's letting his beard get a bit too long methinks...

[Lightning Guy]

Oboe was more accurate at night Nordon at day. The SABS sight was never installed in a Mosquitoe. If I can't talk about the potential prowess of a night-fighting Lightning you can't talk about the potential of the Mossie had it been given this sight. At least P-38s flew with interception radar and some of those in combat. The Mossie did have a number of air-to-air success but remember this, the P-38 shot down more Japanese aircraft than any other plane. That right there closes the fighter argument. I certainly know which plane I would rather be in if I was going to be having to face enemy fighters day in and day out.

[Huckebein]

Originally Posted by Lightning Guy

The P-38 shot down more Japanese aircraft than any other plane. That right there closes the fighter argument. I certainly know which plane I would rather be in if I was going to be having to face enemy fighters day in and day out.

Christ you can be frustrating sometimes!

I know the Mossie wasn't as capable a dogfighter as the Lightning, I simply said it was a lot better than you seemed to give it credit for.

My comments about the SABS sight were designed to counter your 'better than anything the British had' comment about the Norden, not to add to the Mossie/ '38 argument.

As for the Lightning's record in the Pacific, I am well aware of it and it is very impressive. I think a little of that has to go down to the Lightning's consistent ability to outrun every plane the IJN used, and use BnZ tactics to the full. As I have already said, in Europe it didn't achieve a record anywhere near as impressive 'cos the Germans could keep up with it. A little also has to go down to the fact that the pacific skies were flooded with day-fighter P-38s (relatively), and nowhere was ever 'flooded' with dayfighter Mosquitoes...

But, as you said, 'fighter argument closed', I just don't think you'll do as well with recce, nightfighting, strike/ anti shipping, bombing etc. etc...

[Lightning Guy]

Flooded? I would be very surprised if the 5th AF ever had more than 200 P-38s on hand at any one time. Notice that there was only one all P-38 group in the Pacific, ever! As for your comments about the P-38 in Europe, take a look at what it did to the Germans in North Africa, over the Med, and in Italy. The same P-38s cut the same Fw-190s and Bf-109s to ribbons. Over Europe they were plagued with some technical problems at altitude as well as poor tactics (close escort which left any fighter at a serious disadvantage) and poor quality British fuels. Yet at low-altitude, the P-38 more than held its own while managing to chew the Wermacht into little bitty pieces. As a close to this piece on the P-38 in the ETO I give you this quote from Arthur Heiden, P-38 pilot with the 20th FG -

"Let me repeat this again and again. It can never be emphasized too strongly. It makes up the Gospel Word. The P-38L. Now there was the airplane."

"Nothing, to these pilots, after the hard winter of 1943-44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin or split-S or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to initiate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do, the American in the P-38L could do better."

That's not my opinion or the opinion of some historian, that's the factual experience of the guy that was there doing it day in and day out.

[Huckebein]

Ok, ok, if you want to argue the same point over and over that's ok - the P-38 was the better fighter! It sounds a bit as though you're trying to argue the case for the P-38 being the best fighter on the Western Front though...? I'll leave that for another date or thread...

Oh, and don't even try to pretend that the '38 could out-roll an Fw 190 - a '109 maybe, but then what couldn't? "The Gustav's maximum rate of roll is embarassing - the leading edge slots keep opening..." (From an RAE evaluation of the Bf 109G-2 whilst comparing it to various Allied types).

Interestingly enough from the recconnaisance angle of the argument, if the '38 was so damn capable why did the USAAF, which usually had more than enough planes not to need to buy foreign ones, feel the need to buy large numbers of PR Mosquitoes?

[the lancaster kicks ass]

there's no way you can say the P-38 was the better PR plane..................

[Hot Space]

Just look what happens when I leave the Site

Well let's look at the facts:

I have never heard of a P-38 Dive Bombing as such Yep, it did shallow to mid dives, not never dive like the Stuka or Dauntless. A Lightning was dive at high-speed from an altitude of 30,000 ft (9,120 m). When the Pilot reached an indicated airspeed of about 320 mph (515 kph), the airplane's tail began to shake violently and the nose dropped until the dive was almost vertical. The Pilot recovered and landed safely and the tail buffet problem was soon resolved after Lockheed installed new fillets to improve airflow where the cockpit gondola joined the wing center section. Seventeen months passed before engineers began to determine what caused the Lightning's nose to drop. They tested a scale model P-38 in the Ames Laboratory wind tunnel operated by the NACA (National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics) and found that shock waves formed when airflow over the wing reached transonic speeds and became turbulent. Lockheed never remedied this problem but the firm did install dive recovery flaps under each wing in 1944 to restore lift and smooth the airflow enough to maintain control when diving at high-speed. But it was never taken beyond 45 degrees - like the Spitfire, P-51 etc.

The U.S.A.A.F used PR Mossie more then the F-5 because the Merlin Engine was better suited at High Attitude then the Allison. I could go on, but you must remember that the P-38 was built as a Fighter and the Mossie as a Fighter-Bomber. In some area's the Mossie was better and some the P-38 was better, but if you want to compare the P-38 with something, try this beaut

http://www.vflintham.demon.co.uk/air...net/hornet.htm

The D.H Hornet was a "Pure" Fighter updated of the Mossie

Hot Space

[GermansRGeniuses]

Originally Posted by plan_D

The most random spammer award goes to GrG.

It's from il2skins, sorry.

[Lightning Guy]

P-38 was shown to be a first rate dive bomber and regularly when past 45 degrees. The compressibility problems were only encountered when the plane entered a dive from high altitude. Dive-bombing runs started at 12,000ft or so were no problem. In fact, the P-38 was considered to be more stable than the single-engined types since it didn't have any asymmetrical engine torque pulling it off line. Oh, and the dive-flaps would have been installed sooner but a trigger-happy Spitfire pilot shown down the C-54 carrying the first 425 sets of them to England.

I will admit that I don't know as much about the PR Mossies as I probably should. However, I do know that eventually more than 1200 F-4 and F-5 Lightnings were produced/modified. They only required a crew of one and could easily carry as many as 5 cameras in the nose. Performance figures were all very similar to those of the Mosquito.